right...whatever people want, and that seems natural them; just fine with me (within certain limits). On the whole, the notion of more options available for choosing sounds better than fewer.
Orthodox Christianity following Paul especially is geared (imo) toward an immortality of subtle bodily existence, in a dualistic relationship with Jesus; or among Jehovah's Witnesses, perfected physical bodies.. (my interpretation of his statements relating to immortality, perfect bodies, etc; appear related to immortality in some relative sense, not the "immortality" of the Self). ... As to Self-Realization, those who opt for relative extinction after death seem to overlook the fact that there's some body/mind saying "I'm Enlightened, I'm Awakened,..."; and such statements may provide some "utility"...some reason why they've said it. At this juncture I'm not questioning the wisdom of such statments. This being the internet, anything goes and no need to hide one's Lamp under a cover. But with physical death and extinction - obliteration of the remaining bodies - there's no possibility of continuing with activity. Seems like fewer options than more. The idea of fewer options seems to be contrary to MMY's themes such as "Field of All Possibilities". Without a body, there's only one possibility. With bodies, there are Infinite possibilities. ... An interesting question would relate to possible boredom after so many years in the afterlife. But assuming one's chosen Deity has some type of magical powers, the Deity could have the Siddhi "wipe out boredom among devotees". I would expect such a Siddhi among the various powers attributed to Kali. Maybe Jesus. Remains to be seen. --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" <anartaxius@...> wrote: > > > > Yifu, thank you for taking time to answer my queries. I am not convinced of > this. One can have many unusual experience in meditation. Near death > experiences have been tested in certain ways, such as seeing if persons who > say they have had those experiences were able to read messages over the > hospital beds with the writing on boards facing up toward the ceiling etc., > with no confirmation. The mind, as brain, has the propensity to fabricate > experiences, dreams, and it may not be well understood if this capacity for > imagery can be activated in other ways outside of sleep. I do not know the > answer to this question, but for now I would tend to attribute unusual > experiences I have had to slipping into some kind of dream. Out of body > experience can be induced by various means, this has been done under > experimental conditions, so the answer may turn out to be something different > than what those in the past surmised about it. > > I do find it curious that there are all these traditions, in which > immortality is guaranteed in a spiritual sense, that eternity is in living > the moment, not in the concept of time, yet within these traditions, fear of > death and some kind of physical immortality and persistence in time is still > sought for individuality. Depending on who turns out to be right, we will > find out, or we will not. > > --- In [email protected], "Yifu" <yifuxero@> wrote: > > > > Of course...(as to detection). Basically a subtle body or bodies as a > > composite would be, starting with definitions of what an individual body is > > (in some traditions, people don't "have" bodies. They are bodies, or a > > body/mind). Then a simple definition as a starting point would be a > > body/mind or bodies independent of the physical body by way of > > dissasociation or separation; e.g. physical death, out of body travel, or a > > NDE. Such bodies may exist in the subtle dimensions usually invisible to > > most people. > > ... > > Ramana Maharshi stated that he maintained 20 of such subtle bodies in > > subtle planes of existence. Many people claim to have meetings with > > physically dead Gurus via extra-physical contact in which intelligent > > conversations may occur. Then there's the phenomenon of posession in which > > entities living in dimensions "beyond" the physical may attempt to take > > over the physical bodies of susceptible people. > > ... > > Examples: > > a. physical death - I recommend Shyalaman movie with Bruce Willis, "Sixth > > Sense". In one scene a dude was run over by a car and his death was so > > quick that he didn't realize he was dead, until some demons came after him. > > The "he" in this case = the subtle bodies or bodies remaining after the > > demise of the physical. > > ... > > So basically, the question of subtle bodies relates to life after death, > > your dead relatives for example. Do they exist, or not? > > As to direct perception, I've had many contacts with the physically dead so > > need no convincing, but ymmv. > > ... > > Last but not least, we have the testimony of various higher dimensional > > explorers who have given accounts of people, other living entities, and > > environments in unseen (to others) dimensions; for example: Emanuel > > Swedenborg, and more recently Robert A. Monroe, author of "Journey's Out of > > the Body". Hopefully more of such explorers will come on the scene with > > accounts that can be compared and classified, filling in our gaps in > > extradimensional realms....; the types of realms mentioned in various books > > and Scriptures...the Lokas. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" > > <anartaxius@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I used the words as turquoiseb used them. I personally do not prefer the > > > word soul because it has confusing implications or possible equivocations > > > when dealing with multiple spiritual traditions. For myself, I have no > > > clue as to what a 'subtle body' is. I know people talk of this, but what > > > is a 'subtle body,' what characteristics does it have, and where do these > > > characteristics reside? > > > > > > This is kind of a magical concept to me. By what method can this item be > > > determined to exist? Why is it important? What does it add to concepts of > > > existence? Others often use this word 'subtle' to indicate something that > > > cannot be detected by those who claim that whatever it is this word is > > > modifying does not have any reality, like a subtle aura, or a subtle > > > energy field. You cannot know something exists if there is no way to > > > detect it. > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Yifu" <yifuxero@> wrote: > > > > > > > > On "Soul suicide" (best to replace the S word with subtle body or > > > > bodies). In any event, refer to post #277826. As to subtle body > > > > suicide, this is the official TMO version of existence, or fate; among > > > > the Enlightened upon physical death. > > > > ... > > > > Shankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutras (Cf. 277826): > > > > "The release souls are embodied or non-embodied according to their will > > > > > > > > <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> IV. 4.15 � 4.16 > > > > > > > > The released soul can animate several bodies at the same time." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" > > > > <anartaxius@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is really valuable information to know, that you (turquoiseb) > > > > > speak > > > > > for the whole universe ('I think this is a pretty dismal view of the > > > > > universe and indicates that the universe ... doesn't really think very > > > > > much of them [the no-free-will adherents]'). Someone pass the crown! I > > > > > certainly do not know enough to speak for all of existence. > > > > > > > > > > The idea of an enlightened cuckoo clock is not all that bad. A similar > > > > > idea (unfortunately for those Hindu believers) is found in the > > > > > Bhagavad-Gita: 'Ishvara, situated in the heart of all beings, Arjuna, > > > > > causes these beings to move, (as if) being placed on a machine, by > > > > > virtue of maya.' > > > > > > > > > > In religious terminology, this is called the will of God. However > > > > > religions that use this model of description do have a problem when > > > > > they > > > > > make this God omniscient. This logically eliminates free will on the > > > > > individual level. God, in this model, exists - why or how we do not > > > > > know, but this God and will are there, so we can say that it is free, > > > > > it > > > > > is a given. So we have will, and the will is free. Everything follows > > > > > along as if on a machine, a giant cuckoo clock. Enlightenment is > > > > > giving > > > > > up the idea that this free will operates on the individual level of > > > > > sub > > > > > units of the whole. One then flows in stream of life. What one gives > > > > > up > > > > > is the idea that in one's experience, there is an individual (a > > > > > person) > > > > > that is separate from whatever is left over outside the person. > > > > > Everything is actually connected in some way, which seems pretty > > > > > obvious, but somehow for most people, is not obvious especially when > > > > > the > > > > > idea of individual personhood is involved. > > > > > > > > > > Kurt Vonnegut made fun of this idea in one of his novels: by giving > > > > > Adam > > > > > free will, God could not predict what Adam would do, and thus God was > > > > > always surprised, as Adam, having free will on the individual level, > > > > > would always do something that in principle, could not be predicted. > > > > > To > > > > > give an individual free will, God must surrender omniscience, and that > > > > > of course makes God not such hot stuff. > > > > > > > > > > The Buddha's doctrine of no-self also follows along the lines that the > > > > > universe is a cuckoo clock. The idea one is an individual soul in this > > > > > accounting is a mistake. Maybe there are some Buddhists who believe in > > > > > free will, but the doctrine of no-self means there is no one to have > > > > > free will. The universe as a whole is what is free, and is responsible > > > > > for the machinations of the world. This is what science investigates > > > > > in > > > > > the attempt to discover universal laws. One of the logical problems in > > > > > dealing with the relation of the whole to the parts is logic > > > > > illuminates > > > > > the relationship of the parts, it sets the part in their 'true' > > > > > relationship with the whole. But logic itself is a subset of the whole > > > > > representing the balance of those relationships, so it can never work > > > > > to > > > > > explain the entire value of existence. > > > > > > > > > > Your conclusions about enlightenment resulting in coming to the view > > > > > that one is an automaton certainly follows, but even if that is in > > > > > fact > > > > > true, why is that some how sad? The universe remains the same, > > > > > enlightenment does not change the universe. > > > > > > > > > > This does not lessen having a human body in our vicinity, that seems > > > > > to > > > > > be the focus of our experience, it just widens the perspective through > > > > > which we understand what is happening. All the fun and sorrow of life > > > > > is > > > > > in forgetting that it is all just a cuckoo clock. One does not become > > > > > a > > > > > soggy pile of mindless oatmeal porridge with enlightenment, blissfully > > > > > unaware of all the crap that goes on in this universe. One becomes > > > > > fully > > > > > engaged in a mystery. From time to time, we try to solve part of the > > > > > mystery. But we will never solve the whole mystery. This gives you, > > > > > me, > > > > > and others here the license to continue to investigate this here in > > > > > writing, or draw battle lines, whatever suits us for the moment, even > > > > > if > > > > > what suits us is out of our hands; we can always pretend we are the > > > > > doer. For many things in life this is a useful way to look at our > > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > You have written some very entertaining things on this forum, but I > > > > > think you may not always be thinking through all your arguments. I > > > > > particularly enjoyed your piece on manufactured needs. Enlightenment > > > > > is > > > > > a manufactured need. Most people in this world do not give a thought > > > > > to > > > > > the idea because they either do not know the term, or just don't care. > > > > > But if the idea resonates, and it hooks you, then the need seems to be > > > > > real, only to find out, if the quest goes the distance, that it was in > > > > > fact, just made up. Being a seeker is an idiot's quest, but one does > > > > > not > > > > > realize one is the idiot until the path falls out from under the feet. > > > > > > > > > > The idea that we have free will is made up, and it has a particular > > > > > application. The idea that we are automatons is similarly made up, and > > > > > it has a particular application. If you are sitting watching a > > > > > beautiful > > > > > sunset, maybe neither idea will come to mind, just the sitting and > > > > > watching, no mind, just pure experience. By the way, enlightenment is > > > > > soul suicide. > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes I really love the view that non-believers in > > > > > > Free Will have of the universe they live in and what > > > > > > that implies about what the universe thinks of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > They postulate essentially an enormous cuckoo clock, > > > > > > in which all sentient beings are just automatons doing > > > > > > what they've been programmed to do, endlessly. In their > > > > > > view of the universe, many of these automatons think > > > > > > that they're making their own decisions, but they aren't > > > > > > really. That's just an illusion. In reality, they're > > > > > > just acting out actions designed by something or someone > > > > > > else, whatever or whoever wound up the clock. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is most fascinating is that many of the automatons > > > > > > who believe in this Cuckoo Clock Universe present them- > > > > > > selves as if they were "spiritual seekers," that is, as > > > > > > if there were something that was in their power to *do* > > > > > > that would facilitate or speed up their evolution towards > > > > > > the goal of "enlightenment" they aspire to. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I don't understand is why, if they are incapable > > > > > > of "doing" anything, they believe that there is anything > > > > > > they can do to facilitate their enlightenment. Even more > > > > > > puzzling is their reverence for spiritual teachers who > > > > > > they feel are "enlightened." According to their view > > > > > > of the universe, none of these "enlightened" beings can > > > > > > do diddleysquat, either. They are just as much automatons > > > > > > as the people who revere and follow them. And if the > > > > > > whole thing is one big deterministic cuckoo clock, then > > > > > > there was nothing the "enlightened" could *ever* have > > > > > > done for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Me, I think this is a pretty dismal view of the universe, > > > > > > one that indicates that the universe (which many of these > > > > > > supposed "spiritual seekers" believe is sentient) doesn't > > > > > > really think very much of them. It doesn't allow them > > > > > > any freedom or autonomy, and allows them no say in their > > > > > > own lives. Everything is programmed, and there is nothing > > > > > > they can ever do that will affect anything else, *includ- > > > > > > ing* their own enlightenment. And if they ever realize > > > > > > this "enlightenment" they seek, the only thing that's > > > > > > happened for them is that they supposedly realize that > > > > > > they're automatons. > > > > > > > > > > > > Big whoop. I'm much more comfortable with a more Buddhist > > > > > > view of the universe in which everyone has Free Will and > > > > > > thus can affect not only their own lives but the lives > > > > > > of others. Teachers in such a universe would actually be > > > > > > accomplishing something, not just speaking as automatons > > > > > > to other automatons. > > > > > > > > > > > > But if that's the way they want to see the universe they > > > > > > live in, so be it. At least now I understand why so many > > > > > > of them seem so chronically unhappy and why so many of > > > > > > them actually long for annihilation. If I thought I lived > > > > > > inside an enormous cuckoo clock and that nothing I had > > > > > > ever done or will ever do mattered, I'd probably hope > > > > > > for "soul suicide" myself. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
