Mark - Thanks for your reply. I have to clarify that at no point I suggested or would ever imply that you were an imbecile or reborn as a donkey for the things you said about MMY otherwise I wouldn't have wished for your success. I hope I can try to address your points and further clarify my thoughts. "So, just as an example, if I say "M slept with women and got sexually frustrated when he couldn't get any," what kind of statement is this? Is it purely my projection? Is it a moral judgement? Is it objective? Is it subjective? Is it true? Is it false? Is it cavil? Will I be reborn a donkey for saying it?" M slept with women would be reality and portrayal of his behavior as sexual frustration is just a judgment and most likely your projection. "Because, as Robin says, the images that forced themselves upon us forced us to revise our estimation of the man" I wouldn't have revised the estimation, that would be swinging to the other direction, I would have doubted my initial estimation. I explained before how a Satguru as a perfect mirror, of pure awareness, would cause an array of dizzying, bewildering, conflicting emotions. However if one is aware we would find this opportunity in our day to day interactions. Any person or situation that causes bewildering, conflicting emotions would be our Guru, would point to the core pains that haven't been healed within us. This will definitely happen in any loving, intimate relationship and a relationship with someone like M definitely surpasses that. In my life my ex caused these kind of emotions, I madly loved her, so my initial estimation of her was very positive but soon over the years, she caused me lot of grief which caused me to revise my estimation like you. I was bitter, angry, miserable. But eventually I realized that all these emotions were all mine, she was who she was, but by her very nature she created this array of emotions in me, she was much more of a Guru than my Guru Ammachi. Now I just look at her, I just look at the reality, untainted, undisturbed by my own pain. Once I was healed, I was free to truly act without projecting any of my pains, I was free of the grip, grip of my own fears, insecurities, pains reflected by the other, which can only be caused by a deep intimate relationship. A deep intimate relationship where the center falls to the other, a great start but not the end, the end isn't until the center falls back in to you, into your own core. Till you are tethered to the other, the fascination continues, the blame continues, since you are not to blame. How could you be blamed? You are innocent, gullible, you are a victim, the other is to blame, the other is responsible. And the drama continues. YMMV.
--- In [email protected], Mark Landau <m@...> wrote: > > Ah, yes, first the easy way out. Thank you, Ravi, for your well wishes on the sandals, but let's go into epistemology. And, of course, Robin does so eloquently in a subsequent response, which beautifully exemplifies the not so easy way out and will not be as easy for me to reply to. > > It's all Mark. None of it could be MMY. Mark must be an imbecile not to see this. (Should I even reply to this email? Let's see if it might be fruitful...) > > In order to make it fruitful, I guess I have to bring up spiritual maturity again, previously alluded to as "developed being." > > I believe in discernment. I believe that, with true, sincere discernment, one can more and more approach an objective appreciation of the truth. And I know, quite directly, that using real discernment to winnow judgement and projection from reality ain't easy. I also believe in what Robin called (will call) meta-psychological effect, the profound resonance and repercussions that can ensue when our highly developed inner truth meter, if we have the spiritual maturity to have developed one, encounters a deeper truth than we have yet allowed ourselves to assimilate. > > So, just as an example, if I say "M slept with women and got sexually frustrated when he couldn't get any," what kind of statement is this? Is it purely my projection? Is it a moral judgement? Is it objective? Is it subjective? Is it true? Is it false? Is it cavil? Will I be reborn a donkey for saying it? > > Only discernment can cut through it all if one really wants the truth. Of course it's not necessary to really want the truth. I believe that most people don't. > > Why did so many skin boys get disillusioned? Because, as Robin says, the images that forced themselves upon us forced us to revise our estimation of the man. Bevan never really became skin boy. He always wanted to, but was "spared" that. Most of the skin boys got close enough to the man to see his underbelly. And it wasn't as pretty as we all thought it was. > > So, yes, my statement above is either true or false. I leave that for each to decide for yourselves. Is it purely my projection? I, obviously, don't believe so. For me, there is such overwhelming evidence, that, as I said, I believe it simply to be true. Is it moral judgement? This gets trickier. Can I make the above statement with no moral judgement? I believe that would be the sign of true spiritual maturity. Have I attained that? Let's say I'm still working on it. Is it subjective, objective? For me, both. Is it cavil? I would say that depends on one's real motivation, and who can know another's? I came to the decision, long ago, that, in the case of MMY, it really would be liberating for many people to know God's simple truth, the actual reality of what occurred. Cavil would come from hurt, smallness, venality, self-loathing, etc., etc., etc. Can I say that I have eliminated all elements of cavil from everything I say about him? Let's say that's something else I'm still working on. Will I be reborn a donkey for saying it? Perhaps, I had an experience with M about just that at the San Diego Zoo. Maybe I'll get to recount that sometime. But, for me, the truth became more important than my next life. If that's what's meant to be, so be it. We all must take the consequences of everything we do, no? > > So, enough of this for now and the future, if it's fruitful for one person, it's worth it. If not, forgive my indulgence. > > m >
