--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@...> wrote: > > Just something to bear in mind: No matter how fallible > our perceptions may be, they've served us well > evolutionarily. We wouldn't be here if they hadn't > supported our survival as a species.
I don't doubt that this value includes our overconfidence in our ability to perceive reality. Like many holdovers from our more primitive past, like our fight or flight response, what has served us so well in the past may need to be compensated for in our present world. Let's throw into the mix of confusion for our brains internal vision and outer vision the whole super compelling images like my HD TV. I have noticed a stronger reaction in my body to scary films or graphic violence from this more immersive experience. But despite the evolutionary value, primitive societies all over the world also suffer from superstitious based priest cultures. One member claims to have visions (and he may) and somehow parlays this into a type of leadership. Without modern medicine the faith healing of a witch doctor may be the best you can do. But we can do better now. Theoretically that is. With the healthcare mess we are in due to monkey power struggles access may make our advances a moot point and we may have to head back to faith healing! > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@> > wrote: > > > > First great thoughtful response Bob. I'll intersperse my comments on > > Barry's reply. > > > > > > -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price <bobpriced@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Curtis, much appreciated. More below. > > > > > > I am overcoming a reluctance to get into long discussions > > > here because this one seems not only interesting, but as > > > if it could go somewhere. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: curtisdeltablues <curtisdeltablues@> > > > > > > > > > > I am reading a fascinating book called "Incognito, the > > > > > Secret Lives of the Brain" by David Engleman a > > > > > neuroscientist. What has struck me so far in the book is > > > > > how much perception is shaped by our beliefs. And how > > > > > poorly we are able to distinguish between inner and > > > > > outer vision. There is a phenomenon among stroke victims > > > > > where they become blind, but their mind constructs such > > > > > a detailed visual world,they don't realize it. It is > > > > > only over time when the inner vision and outer vision > > > > > collide that they can be convinced that they are not > > > > > seeing the actual outer world. > > > > > > > > Response: Does this mean perception is like a limb that > > > > remains in sense memory after we've lost it? I'm curious > > > > to know an example of the collision you mention above? > > > > > > Me, too. > > > > The collision is furniture, really. The person keeps running into things > > that are not in their visual field. The book's point is that our brain > > creates our visual experience out of a severely fractured input system of > > our eyes. You know about the huge blind spot our corneas have. Why don't > > we see it? Because our brain uses the Photoshop cloning tool and > > manufactures a seamless apparition of reality for us. It is not that > > vision remains in sense memory. It is that the mind has been creating the > > experience all along and as we know in dreams, it does fine without any > > outer vision at all. > > > > > > > > > > It strikes me that we all have developed a confidence > > > > > that the perceptions we are having depict an ontological > > > > > reality outside our mind. It is so strong that it even > > > > > causes you to have a confidence about what happens after > > > > > death. I suspect that it is the compelling nature of > > > > > the experiences that is the basis for this confidence. > > > > > > > > Response: You could be right. I'm not sure I'm confident, > > > > all the time, in my perceptions. > > > > > > Me, either. :-) > > > > Nor I. But people with visions like Jim is having are often supremely > > confident that this is an accurate insight into reality. I believe it is > > an insight into how vision and our minds interact to construct our visual > > field. I believe that the casket was actually there but that the dead > > person was an inner construction in the mind. A mind that is very poor at > > distinguishing inner and outer visions if they are compelling enough. > > > > > > > > > As a businessman I'm motivated by results (profit that > > > > can be measured in numerous ways) and fault on the side > > > > of simplicity. I start with an objective and if, overtime, > > > > my perception brings me closer to my objective I hold on > > > > to my perception. If on the other hand, my perceptions > > > > stop serving my objective I reconsider and quite possibly > > > > adopt a new perception that I originally considered > > > > incapable of serving my objective. I consider this the > > > > competitive part of who I am. Although profit is a prime > > > > metric of commerce-competiton is much more what motivates > > > > me and I believe many other business types. Although the > > > > metaphor can be over simplified, IMO-business is most > > > > like sports and in sports velocity can reduce some of > > > > the editorializing of reality you are describing. If a > > > > tennis ball or a baseball is coming at me at 100mph my > > > > thought and emotions have to surrender to my body to > > > > react effectively. I believe in this surrender there is > > > > a nowness that transcends:) the yoke of perception you > > > > are describing. I'm guessing as a musician, sound does > > > > something similar for you? > > > > > > I'm not sure about how music might have done this > > > for Curtis, but I'm pretty sure that studying martial > > > arts would have. A tennis ball or baseball coming at > > > you at that speed is one thing; you've got a racquet > > > or a glove with which to catch the sucker. But when > > > it's a fist or a foot coming for your face at that > > > speed, there really isn't enough time to construct > > > a terribly sophisticated inner perceptual vision of > > > the incident. After years of martial arts study, your > > > body reacts far faster than your mind, and if you're > > > any good, effectively. In contests I would have > > > blocked the punch or kick and have gotten off a couple > > > of my own before my conscious mind ever perceived that > > > something was going down. > > > > > > How would Eagleman characterize this? What relation- > > > ship to "perception shaped by beliefs" would such a > > > situation have? Does he deal with "body memory," as > > > we know it from studying martial arts or any art that > > > involves performing the same moves over and over for > > > years or decades, so much so that they become more > > > a function of the autonomic nervous system than the > > > somatic nervous system? > > > > He talks about this a lot. The example he uses is an outfielder running > > for a fly ball. They don't do it visually, they can't. Their body is > > running according to a formula of the physics from their mind. It is so > > disconnected to vision that they frequently run into the back wall > > following the internal formula for where the ball will be. So it is not > > that perception is shaped by something as simple as a belief only. Most of > > activity of our minds is unconscious. It has to be. That is one of the > > things I love about playing music, feeling my conscious mind overload and > > sinking into the ocean of me flowing. Some of the martial arts stuff has > > to do with the way our nervous system is constructed so signals don't have > > to reach the cortex, but just bounce from the spinal chord to the reaction. > > No belief interference there. > > > > > > > > > > I am taking myself in a completely opposite direction. > > > > > I am trying to uncover all the areas where my subjective > > > > > influence interferes with my perception, shapes it, > > > > > nudges it in the direction that my mind desires to > > > > > support its beliefs. Not to have an objective ability > > > > > for perception, that is not possible, but to limit > > > > > some of the areas of error that I can. > > > > > > In a way, what you're describing is my reaction after > > > I read my first book about advertising theory. Up to > > > then, as much as I would tell myself that I was never > > > affected by ads, they had me by the gnarblies. When I > > > became aware of the techniques ads employed, and what > > > beliefs in me they pandered to, I set about trying to > > > challenge -- and, if necessary -- change those beliefs. > > > For example, as hooked on shiny toys as I was (at the > > > time I owned a Lexus two-seater that was way fun but way > > > impractical when dealing with the kinds of dirt roads > > > I wanted to drive in New Mexico), so I traded it in > > > for a good, reliable 4X4. I stopped falling for the > > > advertising meme that said "Driving this car will make > > > you young and sexy," and traded up to the meme, "But > > > driving this funky desert wagon will get you where you > > > really want to go." :-) > > > > > > > > I am searching for areas where unwarranted confidence > > > > > masks my cognitive-perceptual flaws. > > > > > > > > Response: "Not to have an objective ability for perception, > > > > that is not possible, but to limit some of the areas of > > > > error that I can." I would describe this as dynamic doubt > > > > which I believe is fundamental to being awake. IMO, to > > > > achieve what you've described requires embracing uncertainty > > > > and thereby using it like drafting another bikers slipstream > > > > or how birds in a flock use each other. > > > > > > Are you describing "Going with the flow?," Bob? Sounds > > > a lot like surfing to me. :-) > > > > > > > > It seems to me that this research in how our minds > > > > > shape all perceptions, not just so called subtle ones, > > > > > should be of interest for people whose perceptions are > > > > > outside the broad consensus. (I am assuming that > > > > > everyone else didn't see the exact same thing at the > > > > > service.) I believe it is important to find out where > > > > > our confidence should be placed concerning these > > > > > perceptions. Our mental perceptual mechanism is so > > > > > fluid, so automatic, so unconscious. We have so many > > > > > blind spots which are compounded by our enthusiastic > > > > > confidence in our lack of blind spots! We are all > > > > > smoking our own brand. We are terrible witnesses to > > > > > external events outside our minds, and even worse > > > > > when it comes to reporting what goes on inside. > > > > > > > > Response: "Question everything starting with the speaker"; > > > > was one of my favourite Krishnamurti lines. I believe to > > > > admit what you're describing takes a great deal of > > > > courage. I suspect the habit of not living completely - > > > > with the truth of our eventual death, conditions us to > > > > dogma and opinion. The kaleidoscope of images of demons > > > > and darkness that the Buddha experienced under the Bodhi > > > > and Jesus experienced in the desert are no more than the > > > > complete embrace of the fear that the admission of our > > > > end requires for awakening. I believe what you're > > > > reaching for, whether we believe in an afterlife or > > > > not, requires constant honesty about death. > > > > > > I would agree, but don't agree to that honesty having > > > to be a bummer. I actually liked Castaneda's ripoff of > > > Sonoran brujos' wisdom: "Think of death as an advisor, > > > lingering at all times just over your left shoulder. > > > It's there to remind you not to waste a moment." > > > > > > > > But the statement that there quite obviously is no > > > > > death, is overreaching. That is a leapfrogging over > > > > > your own subjective confidence to a statement about > > > > > the world that we share. I accept the report of your > > > > > perceptions as accurate for you, and that it had > > > > > compelled you to feel that they are authentically > > > > > representing the world outside yourself. But it is > > > > > way premature to go beyond saying this as a personal > > > > > belief you have. A very compelling one. And in the > > > > > end it may even be true in the sense that we can both > > > > > watch the sun set and report it in somewhat similar > > > > > terms despite our different mindsets. But we are a > > > > > long way from being there yet. > > > > > > > > Response: I'm not sure to experience or understand death > > > > my heart needs to stop. > > > > > > Nor am I. > > > > The concept of understanding may be an overstatement in any case. Do we > > understand the blankness that is deep sleep? But I was pitching the idea > > that we really don't know much about it. > > > > > > > > > I think we first might want to agree on what the word > > > > means at a particular point in time. Like many, I've > > > > watched people and animals I care about die. I've also > > > > personally experienced ego and emotional death. I've > > > > had people I care about take their own lives suddenly > > > > and I've watched others use denial to kill themselves > > > > more slowly. > > > > > > Me, too...and I'm not convinced that the latter > > > was a more pleasant way to go. > > > > > > > I'm thinking we spend too much time trying to understand > > > > death and not enough exploring the process of dying. > > > > Aren't death and dying just change we can believe in? > > > > > > Absolutely. That's my interest in the subject. The > > > only spiritual subjects I'm drawn to these days fall > > > into the category of "Bardo teachings," or explanations > > > (from one point of view or another) of the dying process. > > > All I hope for in life is to dive into mine -- when it > > > comes -- with as much of an intact sense of wonder as I > > > managed to pull off for most of my life. > > > > I like the idea of death as an adviser from Canstaneda. But I'm not sure > > hoe interested I am in death itself because I guess I have concluded that > > my software doesn't run if the hardware fails. Even if a person witnesses > > sleep if they go under phropaphol they go all the way out. I just have no > > confidence yet that we have any reason to believe that this is not the case > > when our braid dies. Despite reports that it goes out with a bang of > > visual circuits firing for near death experiences. (It's the "near" that is > > key.) One third of our brain is devoted to visual construction. That is a > > lot of investment in vision and shows how unsimple it is to construct it > > for us. > > > > > > > > I am WAY open to the journey continuing. And if so, I'd > > > like to be as conscious during that process as I possibly > > > can. But at the same time, if there is just a big CLICK, > > > followed by blackness, my openness to other alternatives > > > is for me a big No Harm, No Foul. If that openness turns > > > out to not be valid, there won't even be a "me" to feel > > > disappointed. CLICK. Big darkness. Over. > > > > I loved how Huxley went out on psychedelics. That seems like the best of > > both POVs. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, if -- as I suspect -- there is more, > > > I'll be there not only grooving on it, but with some idea > > > of what to expect. That Hungry Ghost who leaps out at me > > > in the Bardo and screams "Booga Booga" probably won't > > > phase me all that much -- I've seen much worse in horror > > > movies, and besides know that he's just a projection of > > > my fears and aversions anyway and thus no more scary in > > > death than he was in life. And that babe who looks like > > > Isabelle Adjani and is hitting on me? She's probably a > > > function of my attractions back in life. Meanwhile, there > > > is that nagging Clear Light at the end of the tunnel. It > > > is awfully compelling. > > > > Whoa, who said anything about babes? There are babes in the afterlife, > > even for non Muslims? I'm in, sign me up. > > > > > > > > Then again, what's another life or several hundred back > > > on Earth compared to a tryst in the Bardo with Isabelle > > > Adjani? If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I > > > suspect I'm gonna be stuck on this rock for some time. :-) > > > > If I could vote for reality I sure would vote for more lives. Although > > statistically speaking the one I got now is the lottery winner for human > > history. Perhaps it wouldn't be so great to throw the dice again and end > > up in Somalia as a woman with 10 kids. Or as one of the 10 kids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
