Just something to bear in mind: No matter how fallible our perceptions may be, they've served us well evolutionarily. We wouldn't be here if they hadn't supported our survival as a species.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@...> wrote: > > First great thoughtful response Bob. I'll intersperse my comments on Barry's > reply. > > > -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bob Price <bobpriced@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Curtis, much appreciated. More below. > > > > I am overcoming a reluctance to get into long discussions > > here because this one seems not only interesting, but as > > if it could go somewhere. > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: curtisdeltablues <curtisdeltablues@> > > > > > > > > I am reading a fascinating book called "Incognito, the > > > > Secret Lives of the Brain" by David Engleman a > > > > neuroscientist. What has struck me so far in the book is > > > > how much perception is shaped by our beliefs. And how > > > > poorly we are able to distinguish between inner and > > > > outer vision. There is a phenomenon among stroke victims > > > > where they become blind, but their mind constructs such > > > > a detailed visual world,they don't realize it. It is > > > > only over time when the inner vision and outer vision > > > > collide that they can be convinced that they are not > > > > seeing the actual outer world. > > > > > > Response: Does this mean perception is like a limb that > > > remains in sense memory after we've lost it? I'm curious > > > to know an example of the collision you mention above? > > > > Me, too. > > The collision is furniture, really. The person keeps running into things > that are not in their visual field. The book's point is that our brain > creates our visual experience out of a severely fractured input system of our > eyes. You know about the huge blind spot our corneas have. Why don't we see > it? Because our brain uses the Photoshop cloning tool and manufactures a > seamless apparition of reality for us. It is not that vision remains in > sense memory. It is that the mind has been creating the experience all along > and as we know in dreams, it does fine without any outer vision at all. > > > > > > > It strikes me that we all have developed a confidence > > > > that the perceptions we are having depict an ontological > > > > reality outside our mind. It is so strong that it even > > > > causes you to have a confidence about what happens after > > > > death. I suspect that it is the compelling nature of > > > > the experiences that is the basis for this confidence. > > > > > > Response: You could be right. I'm not sure I'm confident, > > > all the time, in my perceptions. > > > > Me, either. :-) > > Nor I. But people with visions like Jim is having are often supremely > confident that this is an accurate insight into reality. I believe it is an > insight into how vision and our minds interact to construct our visual field. > I believe that the casket was actually there but that the dead person was an > inner construction in the mind. A mind that is very poor at distinguishing > inner and outer visions if they are compelling enough. > > > > > > As a businessman I'm motivated by results (profit that > > > can be measured in numerous ways) and fault on the side > > > of simplicity. I start with an objective and if, overtime, > > > my perception brings me closer to my objective I hold on > > > to my perception. If on the other hand, my perceptions > > > stop serving my objective I reconsider and quite possibly > > > adopt a new perception that I originally considered > > > incapable of serving my objective. I consider this the > > > competitive part of who I am. Although profit is a prime > > > metric of commerce-competiton is much more what motivates > > > me and I believe many other business types. Although the > > > metaphor can be over simplified, IMO-business is most > > > like sports and in sports velocity can reduce some of > > > the editorializing of reality you are describing. If a > > > tennis ball or a baseball is coming at me at 100mph my > > > thought and emotions have to surrender to my body to > > > react effectively. I believe in this surrender there is > > > a nowness that transcends:) the yoke of perception you > > > are describing. I'm guessing as a musician, sound does > > > something similar for you? > > > > I'm not sure about how music might have done this > > for Curtis, but I'm pretty sure that studying martial > > arts would have. A tennis ball or baseball coming at > > you at that speed is one thing; you've got a racquet > > or a glove with which to catch the sucker. But when > > it's a fist or a foot coming for your face at that > > speed, there really isn't enough time to construct > > a terribly sophisticated inner perceptual vision of > > the incident. After years of martial arts study, your > > body reacts far faster than your mind, and if you're > > any good, effectively. In contests I would have > > blocked the punch or kick and have gotten off a couple > > of my own before my conscious mind ever perceived that > > something was going down. > > > > How would Eagleman characterize this? What relation- > > ship to "perception shaped by beliefs" would such a > > situation have? Does he deal with "body memory," as > > we know it from studying martial arts or any art that > > involves performing the same moves over and over for > > years or decades, so much so that they become more > > a function of the autonomic nervous system than the > > somatic nervous system? > > He talks about this a lot. The example he uses is an outfielder running for > a fly ball. They don't do it visually, they can't. Their body is running > according to a formula of the physics from their mind. It is so disconnected > to vision that they frequently run into the back wall following the internal > formula for where the ball will be. So it is not that perception is shaped > by something as simple as a belief only. Most of activity of our minds is > unconscious. It has to be. That is one of the things I love about playing > music, feeling my conscious mind overload and sinking into the ocean of me > flowing. Some of the martial arts stuff has to do with the way our nervous > system is constructed so signals don't have to reach the cortex, but just > bounce from the spinal chord to the reaction. No belief interference there. > > > > > > > I am taking myself in a completely opposite direction. > > > > I am trying to uncover all the areas where my subjective > > > > influence interferes with my perception, shapes it, > > > > nudges it in the direction that my mind desires to > > > > support its beliefs. Not to have an objective ability > > > > for perception, that is not possible, but to limit > > > > some of the areas of error that I can. > > > > In a way, what you're describing is my reaction after > > I read my first book about advertising theory. Up to > > then, as much as I would tell myself that I was never > > affected by ads, they had me by the gnarblies. When I > > became aware of the techniques ads employed, and what > > beliefs in me they pandered to, I set about trying to > > challenge -- and, if necessary -- change those beliefs. > > For example, as hooked on shiny toys as I was (at the > > time I owned a Lexus two-seater that was way fun but way > > impractical when dealing with the kinds of dirt roads > > I wanted to drive in New Mexico), so I traded it in > > for a good, reliable 4X4. I stopped falling for the > > advertising meme that said "Driving this car will make > > you young and sexy," and traded up to the meme, "But > > driving this funky desert wagon will get you where you > > really want to go." :-) > > > > > > I am searching for areas where unwarranted confidence > > > > masks my cognitive-perceptual flaws. > > > > > > Response: "Not to have an objective ability for perception, > > > that is not possible, but to limit some of the areas of > > > error that I can." I would describe this as dynamic doubt > > > which I believe is fundamental to being awake. IMO, to > > > achieve what you've described requires embracing uncertainty > > > and thereby using it like drafting another bikers slipstream > > > or how birds in a flock use each other. > > > > Are you describing "Going with the flow?," Bob? Sounds > > a lot like surfing to me. :-) > > > > > > It seems to me that this research in how our minds > > > > shape all perceptions, not just so called subtle ones, > > > > should be of interest for people whose perceptions are > > > > outside the broad consensus. (I am assuming that > > > > everyone else didn't see the exact same thing at the > > > > service.) I believe it is important to find out where > > > > our confidence should be placed concerning these > > > > perceptions. Our mental perceptual mechanism is so > > > > fluid, so automatic, so unconscious. We have so many > > > > blind spots which are compounded by our enthusiastic > > > > confidence in our lack of blind spots! We are all > > > > smoking our own brand. We are terrible witnesses to > > > > external events outside our minds, and even worse > > > > when it comes to reporting what goes on inside. > > > > > > Response: "Question everything starting with the speaker"; > > > was one of my favourite Krishnamurti lines. I believe to > > > admit what you're describing takes a great deal of > > > courage. I suspect the habit of not living completely - > > > with the truth of our eventual death, conditions us to > > > dogma and opinion. The kaleidoscope of images of demons > > > and darkness that the Buddha experienced under the Bodhi > > > and Jesus experienced in the desert are no more than the > > > complete embrace of the fear that the admission of our > > > end requires for awakening. I believe what you're > > > reaching for, whether we believe in an afterlife or > > > not, requires constant honesty about death. > > > > I would agree, but don't agree to that honesty having > > to be a bummer. I actually liked Castaneda's ripoff of > > Sonoran brujos' wisdom: "Think of death as an advisor, > > lingering at all times just over your left shoulder. > > It's there to remind you not to waste a moment." > > > > > > But the statement that there quite obviously is no > > > > death, is overreaching. That is a leapfrogging over > > > > your own subjective confidence to a statement about > > > > the world that we share. I accept the report of your > > > > perceptions as accurate for you, and that it had > > > > compelled you to feel that they are authentically > > > > representing the world outside yourself. But it is > > > > way premature to go beyond saying this as a personal > > > > belief you have. A very compelling one. And in the > > > > end it may even be true in the sense that we can both > > > > watch the sun set and report it in somewhat similar > > > > terms despite our different mindsets. But we are a > > > > long way from being there yet. > > > > > > Response: I'm not sure to experience or understand death > > > my heart needs to stop. > > > > Nor am I. > > The concept of understanding may be an overstatement in any case. Do we > understand the blankness that is deep sleep? But I was pitching the idea > that we really don't know much about it. > > > > > > I think we first might want to agree on what the word > > > means at a particular point in time. Like many, I've > > > watched people and animals I care about die. I've also > > > personally experienced ego and emotional death. I've > > > had people I care about take their own lives suddenly > > > and I've watched others use denial to kill themselves > > > more slowly. > > > > Me, too...and I'm not convinced that the latter > > was a more pleasant way to go. > > > > > I'm thinking we spend too much time trying to understand > > > death and not enough exploring the process of dying. > > > Aren't death and dying just change we can believe in? > > > > Absolutely. That's my interest in the subject. The > > only spiritual subjects I'm drawn to these days fall > > into the category of "Bardo teachings," or explanations > > (from one point of view or another) of the dying process. > > All I hope for in life is to dive into mine -- when it > > comes -- with as much of an intact sense of wonder as I > > managed to pull off for most of my life. > > I like the idea of death as an adviser from Canstaneda. But I'm not sure hoe > interested I am in death itself because I guess I have concluded that my > software doesn't run if the hardware fails. Even if a person witnesses sleep > if they go under phropaphol they go all the way out. I just have no > confidence yet that we have any reason to believe that this is not the case > when our braid dies. Despite reports that it goes out with a bang of visual > circuits firing for near death experiences. (It's the "near" that is key.) > One third of our brain is devoted to visual construction. That is a lot of > investment in vision and shows how unsimple it is to construct it for us. > > > > > I am WAY open to the journey continuing. And if so, I'd > > like to be as conscious during that process as I possibly > > can. But at the same time, if there is just a big CLICK, > > followed by blackness, my openness to other alternatives > > is for me a big No Harm, No Foul. If that openness turns > > out to not be valid, there won't even be a "me" to feel > > disappointed. CLICK. Big darkness. Over. > > I loved how Huxley went out on psychedelics. That seems like the best of > both POVs. > > > > > On the other hand, if -- as I suspect -- there is more, > > I'll be there not only grooving on it, but with some idea > > of what to expect. That Hungry Ghost who leaps out at me > > in the Bardo and screams "Booga Booga" probably won't > > phase me all that much -- I've seen much worse in horror > > movies, and besides know that he's just a projection of > > my fears and aversions anyway and thus no more scary in > > death than he was in life. And that babe who looks like > > Isabelle Adjani and is hitting on me? She's probably a > > function of my attractions back in life. Meanwhile, there > > is that nagging Clear Light at the end of the tunnel. It > > is awfully compelling. > > Whoa, who said anything about babes? There are babes in the afterlife, even > for non Muslims? I'm in, sign me up. > > > > > Then again, what's another life or several hundred back > > on Earth compared to a tryst in the Bardo with Isabelle > > Adjani? If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I > > suspect I'm gonna be stuck on this rock for some time. :-) > > If I could vote for reality I sure would vote for more lives. Although > statistically speaking the one I got now is the lottery winner for human > history. Perhaps it wouldn't be so great to throw the dice again and end up > in Somalia as a woman with 10 kids. Or as one of the 10 kids. > > > > > > > > > > >
