Thanks Curtis too!
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "whynotnow7" <whynotnow7@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I don't consider any of my experiences in terms of what they might look
> > like to others, or from a historical or statistical perspective. That would
> > be a strange way to live, wouldn't it?
>
> Not for me. I think of it as a natural product of education.
>
> < Always comparing our experience to some sort of cosmic guinness book of
> world records? What a trap. What a prison.>
>
> I'm not sure what that would mean but I guess the idea might be to seek a
> more complete understanding. At least that is how I live with all the
> experiences I have had including spiritual ones.
>
>
> < So you find my experiences unusual? OK, I don't. I enjoy sharing such
> things because they can be commonplace for any of us, and part of my intent
> is to show that there is nothing special about them, at all.>
>
> Downplaying their effect on you makes sense. Not seeing that they represent
> something outside the norm doesn't to me.
>
> >
> > I would never attempt to contact your mom. >
>
> I wasn't suggesting that. May she rest in peace. I was just speculating on
> what it would take for me to share your beliefs in what your experience
> means. Knowing what I know about human fallibility in knowledge it would take
> more than seeing her was my point.
>
>
> <It is a violation of life to do such a thing, treating her as part of a
> parlor trick vs. the wonderful kind and perceptive person you have described
> her to be.>
>
> It wouldn't necessarily be so. If she was contactable as a person now she
> might be fascinated with the project.
>
> < You on the other hand could probably get in touch with her directly quite
> easily, imo.>
>
> I am happy with the memories of her in life. I don't believe she exists
> outside that and I am at peace with that.
>
>
> < I have nothing to prove. Life is a wonderful and fantastic mystery and will
> remain so, no matter how much we know.>
>
> We're just talk' here. I wasn't trying to make you feel as if you have to
> prove anything. Of course you don't this is your personal experience and
> interpretation of what it means.
>
> >
> > Sure I know about lift and airfoils and step motors and piezoelectric
> > transducers and how they work, and yet I find flight much more fascinating
> > than being with those who have passed on. Maybe that wouldn't be the case
> > if I were a pilot.:-)
>
> Hopefully it would be more so, I mean if I were in the plane with you in the
> cockpit!
>
> Great rap, thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "whynotnow7" <whynotnow7@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I wanted to investigate a word you used possibly without thinking, to
> > > > characterize the experience I mentioned before, that of death being an
> > > > obvious illusion. The word is 'profound'. I absolutely do not consider
> > > > my experiences of those who have passed on to be 'profound'. Out of the
> > > > ordinary perhaps, but profound? No way. It has been happening for too
> > > > long to amaze me.
> > >
> > > I can understand how this could become common enough to be considered as
> > > ordinary, but in the context of human knowledge, a first person account,
> > > if credible, of life after death is more than just merely profound. It
> > > would be the single most significant revelation of human history. What
> > > an experience like this represents is something beyond just a religious
> > > belief in an afterlife, but the beginning of an insight born of direct
> > > knowledge from perception. The key to confirming it would have to come
> > > from some of the other principles of solid epistemology. If I had 5
> > > minutes conversation with my dear old Mom from beyond the grave, I could
> > > confirm to my own satisfaction the truth of life beyond death. And each
> > > of us would have the ability with a loved one we knew well to verify this
> > > kind of perception. Or actually it would require another step because I
> > > could easily persuade myself that I was verifying the information I knew
> > > myself. So we would need another step. I would tell you a question to
> > > ask my mom and she would tell you. Then you would tell me having had
> > > written the answer down and put in the hands of someone else beforehand.
> > > Houdini wanted to set this type of verification up with his wife, but
> > > never contacted her.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > What I DO consider a *profound* experience is something like what I saw
> > > > when filling up at a new gas station across from the airport today, a
> > > > fully loaded 737 landing with absolute precision, and one taking off
> > > > the same way! That always fills me with awe and wonder, that I am
> > > > witnessing a profound miracle.:-)
> > >
> > > I assume you have seen the wonder of flight even longer than you have
> > > perceived people who have died standing somewhere. I agree that flight
> > > is amazing, but it comes from principles that we as a culture do
> > > understand to a high degree of precision. This is a huge distinction
> > > between these different types of knowledge.
> > >
> > > A fascinating discussion about knowledge and how we can be confident
> > > about our perspectives. I am not trying to concert you to my view, that
> > > would be impossible given your experiences and the limitations of my own.
> > > But I appreciate your sharing them with me so that I can consider their
> > > value to my perspective. Hey Rory, you got any more of those hot wings
> > > for Jim? Talk about miracles! The skin stays crunchy on the outside
> > > even with the hot sauce while the inside is moist and tender. Now that's
> > > divine.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Rory. It sounds like we are both in the same boat then.
> > > > > Whatever level of expanded experience you have is fraught with the
> > > > > same cognitive limitations of the rest of us. So we both do the best
> > > > > we can with the equipment we have.
> > > > >
> > > > > You seem to have avoided the epistemological tar pit of believing
> > > > > that compelling equals credible which I myself try to look out for. I
> > > > > respect that The un-awakened are just as prone to that fallacy.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am very excited about increasing my knowledge of what they are
> > > > > discovering about how our mind works through the lens of neruo
> > > > > science. Although I am not a complete reductionist, I figure I have
> > > > > to at least start there.
> > > > >
> > > > > The blend of inner and outer vision as a profound experience does not
> > > > > just have spiritual implications. It also is a tool for creativity
> > > > > for the arts. And the line gets pretty blurred where these meet, say
> > > > > in Blake's work or even Jung. Although I am pretty content to stay
> > > > > on the artistic side of the fence, I am well aware that we have our
> > > > > picnic blankets spread out in the same field and might be able to lob
> > > > > a chicken wing or corn on the cob to each other occasionally.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "RoryGoff" <rorygoff@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * * I can totally dig this, Curtis. For me, that was what Awakening
> > > > > > entailed: the sudden visceral realization that my perceptible
> > > > > > reality depends entirely upon my (previously subconscious) beliefs,
> > > > > > or programs, and the concomitant realization that by consciously
> > > > > > changing my programs, my whole reality instantly shifts. As a
> > > > > > result, I am not particularly impressed by most "experience(s)"
> > > > > > since they are so patently self-generated reflections of our own
> > > > > > predispositions. That does not mean they aren't also "true"
> > > > > > however, and I am interested in where our various realities may
> > > > > > meet, the common ground we may share, where our maps may agree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> > > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am reading a fascinating book called "Incognito, the Secret
> > > > > > > Lives of the Brain" by David Engleman a neuroscientist. What has
> > > > > > > struck me so far in the book is how much perception is shaped by
> > > > > > > our beliefs. And how poorly we are able to distinguish between
> > > > > > > inner and outer vision. There is a phenomenon among stroke
> > > > > > > victims where they become blind, but their mind constructs such a
> > > > > > > detailed visual world,they don't realize it. It is only over
> > > > > > > time when the inner vision and outer vision collide that they can
> > > > > > > be convinced that they are not seeing the actual outer world.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It strikes me that we all have developed a confidence that the
> > > > > > > perceptions we are having depict an ontological reality outside
> > > > > > > our mind. It is so strong that it even causes you to have a
> > > > > > > confidence about what happens after death. I suspect that it is
> > > > > > > the compelling nature of the experiences that is the basis for
> > > > > > > this confidence.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am taking myself in a completely opposite direction. I am
> > > > > > > trying to uncover all the areas where my subjective influence
> > > > > > > interferes with my perception, shapes it, nudges it in the
> > > > > > > direction that my mind desires to support its beliefs. Not to
> > > > > > > have an objective ability for perception, that is not possible,
> > > > > > > but to limit some of the areas of error that I can. I am
> > > > > > > searching for areas where unwarranted confidence masks my
> > > > > > > cognitive-perceptual flaws.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It seems to me that this research in how our minds shape all
> > > > > > > perceptions,not just so called subtle ones, should be of interest
> > > > > > > for people whose perceptions are outside the broad consensus. (I
> > > > > > > am assuming that everyone else didn't see the exact same thing at
> > > > > > > the service.) I believe it is important to find out where our
> > > > > > > confidence should be placed concerning these perceptions. Our
> > > > > > > mental perceptual mechanism is so fluid, so automatic, so
> > > > > > > unconscious. We have so many blind spots which are compounded by
> > > > > > > our enthusiastic confidence in our lack of blind spots! We are
> > > > > > > all smoking our own brand. We are terrible witnesses to external
> > > > > > > events outside our minds, and even worse when it comes to
> > > > > > > reporting what goes on inside.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But the statement that there quite obviously is no death, is
> > > > > > > overreaching. That is a leapfrogging over your own subjective
> > > > > > > confidence to a statement about the world that we share. I
> > > > > > > accept the report of your perceptions as accurate for you, and
> > > > > > > that it had compelled you to feel that they are authentically
> > > > > > > representing the world outside yourself. But it is way premature
> > > > > > > to go beyond saying this as a personal belief you have. A very
> > > > > > > compelling one. And in the end it may even be true in the sense
> > > > > > > that we can both watch the sun set and report it in somewhat
> > > > > > > similar terms despite our different mindsets. But we are a long
> > > > > > > way from being there yet.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would love to hear someone input the information about the mind
> > > > > > > and senses I am reading and integrate it with their experience of
> > > > > > > subtle perceptions. This information really shakes up having
> > > > > > > confidence in our ability to make these distinctions well.
> > > > > > > Distinctions that we often bet our lives on every day. Every day
> > > > > > > we drive we are throwing the dice on our ability to pull it all
> > > > > > > together internally while being bombarded with sensory input that
> > > > > > > is chaos until our mind sorts it out with process beneath our
> > > > > > > conscious awareness, but on whose judgements we rely for our very
> > > > > > > survival.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I guess what I am concluding is that far from having confidence
> > > > > > > in perceptions involving life after death; I'm thinking that I am
> > > > > > > an idiot to ever drive while talking on my cell phone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
