Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, "...the many avenues by which it can enter..." I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results.
________________________________ From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius <anartax...@yahoo.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:35 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: >>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: >>>> >>>> And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: >>>> >>>> "It's the mythological history of India and the sacred >>>> religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal >>>> hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent >>>> fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An >>>> eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes >>>> attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's >>>> a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and >>>> it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is >>>> today." >>> >>> My bad. On second glance this does not appear to >>> be any kind of "official" website, just one trying >>> to sell tours there. >>> >>> But it is downright silly to pretend that there are >>> no promises of benefits made about attending the >>> Kumbh Mela. >> >> Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said >> there were "no promises of benefits made" about >> attending. And of course the fulfillment of the >> promise of "eternal life free of sins" is not one >> that was measured by the study. All it looked at >> was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after >> attending. >> >> Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything >> mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to >> improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal >> experience that did it--very much like attending a >> ball game. >> >> So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in >> two, and you've done yet another face-plant. >> >> Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of >> yourself and someone points it out, you try to go >> after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost >> always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. >> >> This has happened to you countless times since I >> first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still >> haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll >> look a whole lot better admitting it. >> >> That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch >> you do it to yourself all over again, as if you >> somehow think it's going to be *different* this >> time. > > And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out > the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I don't > know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he did he > would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will really get > the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive repertoire; he > likes to stick with the tried and true. Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating full blast. High quality studies done at NIH in the last ten years or so on various alternative medicine treatments seem to indicate that it is entirely the placebo effect that produces a result from these treatments. We could expect the effect to operate where people are on pilgrimages to various locations, such a Lourdes, etc., though proving it to any degree would likely be difficult or impossible as a pilgrimage is a situation where one cannot effectively apply scientific controls. Both sides of this 'debate' are valid, as to causality. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. Suppose one did a study on the effect of chewing gum flavours in a spiritual community. If one of the flavours was Juicy Fruit and the other Lotus Blossom, you would have to control for some sort of expectation: Juicy Fruit might be associated in the mind, in memory, with baseball cards or crass, commercial products one frequented with as a child, hile a lotus is in some quarters considered a spiritual symbol. One might reason, based on the way placebos work, that in this case Juicy Fruit gum would have less placebo effect than Lotus Blossom gum, and that male subjects would perceive these products differently than women, and the study would have to initiate controls for this possibility. >> >>> AND, for those who actually believe such promises, >>> there might be some "payoff," however imaginary or >>> moodmakey it might be in actuality. Whatever floats >>> yer boat. If you feel that bathing with millions of >>> other people in a vast river full of shit and corpses >>> is going to make you well or make you more spiritual, >>> maybe it will. Better that you should go there than me. >>> >>>> The "setup" for these pilgrims couldn't be more placebo >>>> if it were dispensed by a doctor in a white coat. But >>>> it was good of the DC to demonstrate how little *she* >>>> knows about the placebo effect and how it works. :-) >>>> >>> >> >
