--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: > > Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, "...the many > avenues by which it can enter..." I'd never thought of placebo > in that way.
Nor should you. Xeno is using the term so broadly and loosely that it gets diluted to the point of meaninglessness. Lourdes is a reasonable example; people go there with the expectation of being cured of a specific ailment, which either occurs or does not occur. Kumbh Mela is not, at least as the effects of attendance were described in the study that started this discussion. > Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to > be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the > placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound > results. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:35 PM > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves > physical and mental well-being > > > Â > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > >>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: > >>>> > >>>> And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: > >>>> > >>>> "It's the mythological history of India and the sacred > >>>> religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal > >>>> hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent > >>>> fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An > >>>> eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes > >>>> attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's > >>>> a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and > >>>> it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is > >>>> today." > >>> > >>> My bad. On second glance this does not appear to > >>> be any kind of "official" website, just one trying > >>> to sell tours there. > >>> > >>> But it is downright silly to pretend that there are > >>> no promises of benefits made about attending the > >>> Kumbh Mela. > >> > >> Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said > >> there were "no promises of benefits made" about > >> attending. And of course the fulfillment of the > >> promise of "eternal life free of sins" is not one > >> that was measured by the study. All it looked at > >> was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after > >> attending. > >> > >> Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything > >> mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to > >> improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal > >> experience that did it--very much like attending a > >> ball game. > >> > >> So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in > >> two, and you've done yet another face-plant. > >> > >> Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of > >> yourself and someone points it out, you try to go > >> after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost > >> always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. > >> > >> This has happened to you countless times since I > >> first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still > >> haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll > >> look a whole lot better admitting it. > >> > >> That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch > >> you do it to yourself all over again, as if you > >> somehow think it's going to be *different* this > >> time. > > > > And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out > > the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I > > don't know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he > > did he would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will > > really get the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive > > repertoire; he likes to stick with the tried and true. > > Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo > effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where > people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in > which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating > full blast. High quality studies done at NIH in the last ten years or so on > various alternative medicine treatments seem to indicate that it is entirely > the placebo effect that produces a result from these treatments. > > We could expect the effect to operate where people are on pilgrimages to > various locations, such a Lourdes, etc., though proving it to any degree > would likely be difficult or impossible as a pilgrimage is a situation where > one cannot effectively apply scientific controls. Both sides of this 'debate' > are valid, as to causality. Research on activities with spiritual themes > historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence > and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can > enter and confound results. > > Suppose one did a study on the effect of chewing gum flavours in a spiritual > community. If one of the flavours was Juicy Fruit and the other Lotus > Blossom, you would have to control for some sort of expectation: Juicy Fruit > might be associated in the mind, in memory, with baseball cards or crass, > commercial products one frequented with as a child, hile a lotus is in some > quarters considered a spiritual symbol. One might reason, based on the way > placebos work, that in this case Juicy Fruit gum would have less placebo > effect than Lotus Blossom gum, and that male subjects would perceive these > products differently than women, and the study would have to initiate > controls for this possibility. > >> > >>> AND, for those who actually believe such promises, > >>> there might be some "payoff," however imaginary or > >>> moodmakey it might be in actuality. Whatever floats > >>> yer boat. If you feel that bathing with millions of > >>> other people in a vast river full of shit and corpses > >>> is going to make you well or make you more spiritual, > >>> maybe it will. Better that you should go there than me. > >>> > >>>> The "setup" for these pilgrims couldn't be more placebo > >>>> if it were dispensed by a doctor in a white coat. But > >>>> it was good of the DC to demonstrate how little *she* > >>>> knows about the placebo effect and how it works. :-) > >>>> > >>> > >> > > >
