Akasha, I'm with you on this. I'm not going to try to address your points or bounce off of them, because 1) it's late here, and 2) I'm a compulsive straightener-uppoer, and I'd have to spend a lot of time reformatting the lines you wrote to keep them from wrapping and getting all ugly. :-) So what I'll do is riff on your thoughts with some of mine.
I am by nature a tantric, in the sense that I get off on polarities. What I do for fun, and for spiritual fun, is "surf energies," often the more polarized energies the better. I *completely* understand your subjective experience of having your tendency to objectify women *lessened* by visiting a strip club. I have experienced exactly the same thing. When I write, I often do it in public places. Bars, cafes, whatever. When I really get into the writing, the surroundings don't bother me. In fact, sometimes they can help, especially if there is some polarity that exists between what I am writing about and the environment in which I am writing it. I wrote several of the stories in Road Trip Mind while sitting at the bar of Yab Yum, the most famous brothel in Amsterdam. I wasn't there to screw the women; I had a kind of deal with the owner, who owed me a favor, and he let me sit there and drink and write for free. And some of the stories -- about Buddhism and the pursuit of self discovery -- that emerged from that brothel were, in my opinion, quite high, as was the subjective exper- ience of writing them. One of the stories I wrote in the strip club in Detroit was also spiritual, but set in that very club. There is an odd tradition in Tibet in which women or men allow themselves to be possessed for a short time by a benevo- lent dakini. While they are possessed, they dance, and it is considered a spiritual blessing to be present during such a dance, because the shakti is just flying every- where. So I invented a story in which one of these dakinis, thinking she was possessing a holy woman in a Tibetan temple, opens her eyes and finds that instead she has possessed a stripper in this club. It was a real ball to write, and again a very high subjective experience. And the women in the bar just *loved* it when I showed it to them. Anyway, to your points, I think that different people have different predilections in life. Some, like you and I, seem to be able to immerse ourselves in an environment that many consider negative and low-vibe, and emerge from the experience higher and purified. Go figure. Others, in the exact same environment, would have their state of attention lowered. Go figure again. If you are of the latter predilection, no amount of talk or intellectual explanation is going to sway you from your belief that strip clubs are low-vibe and/or that they objectify women or somehow demean them. It's a "gut" feel- ing for them; their body just *reacts* to certain stimuli in a way that, for them, is not positive. Other people react other ways. Me, I'm quite happy with my tantric approach to things, with surfing weird and disparate energies and finding eternity at both ends of the spectrum and at every point in between. I'm often subjectively higher, and have clearer experiences of witnessing, in the red light district of Amsterdam or in a strip club than I do in a temple or supposed holy place. Like you, I have to go with my subjective feeling, even if it doesn't make any sense to people who have a more traditional, right-and-wrong approach to these polarities. My favorite singer/songwriter, Bruce Cockburn, has a line in one of his songs that, for me, captures this dance of energies perfectly, and also captures the experience of finding spiritual experiences in odd places, places that other people might consider distinctly unholy: You see the extremes of what humans can be And in that distance some tension's born Energy surging like a storm You plunge your hand in You draw it back, scorched Beneath it's shining like gold But better Rumours of glory... Unc --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Just popped in to take a break and look around. Found this thread. > > Just curious if Akasha and others might address the question of why > > he/they experience such strong emotional energy around this subject > > as to feel compelled to write long defenses of his/their positions > > or critiques of others'. So some people like strip clubs and others > > don't. Big deal. And what's wrong or new about different people > > having different values, beliefs or experiences? Thank goodness > > people have options. > > I am happy to address this, though I believe some of your premises are > off target. > > I don't experience strong emotional energy around this subject, I > experince strong intellectual energy around it. As I have stated in > past posts, I find posting here can, not always is, a useful way to > unfold paradoxes and unresolved points of view. First by working to > articulate it. In the process one often learns alot more about their > views. And second, to get some feedback. I love it when people say, > "this points doesn't make sense. Or it contradicts these facts". I am > less enthralled when people say "you suck, you asshole, for making > this point." > > I don't feel compelled. I can do it or drop it. If anything, there is > a drive of curiosity, where will this logic take me/us. > > I do not, in my view, write defenses of my positions. First, I often > do not have firm positions. I may have sup-points that appear valid, > and I will argue for them, and counter weak arguments against them, in > order to "test" the strength of the idea. But I am not defending > anything. I have no firm positions. > > And I try not to critique others. I try to point out holes in some > positions when warrented. And appplaud when good points are made, on > either side of the issue. But I try to leave personal attacks out of > it. And that includes imputing motives to others for what they write. > > For example, some might mistakenly think that I am arguing for strip > clubs. I am not. Actually, I find they have some negative aspects. > What I am arguing is that exploitation and objectification of women, > upon deeper analysis, and upon my own experience and observations, do > not appear to be realities or valid arguments in condeming clubs. > My message is, no thats not a strong argument against clubs, dig > deeper. As I am myself. I am not quite sure what bothers me about some > of the clubs, but its not the pat and to me trite answers of > objectification and exploitation. > > Plus, I don't like to be guilt-triped into taking postitions for which > there is no strong evidence, or worse, which counter my expereince. > But sometimes, I conceede to conventional views and sigh with eveyone > else when a loaded neutron bomb word like "objectification" is thrown > terrorist like into a discussion. It scares everyons silent. No one > wants to be with 300 feet of the accusations of being an objectifier, > a racist, a mysoginist, etc. So they cave to such, igoring reason and > evidence. As I do cave sometimes, its often because I have not really > figured out why the conventional wisdom is wrong. Not so I can argue > it persuasively. > > On this issue, I decided not to be embareassed or shamed into silence > by declarations of convetional progressive thinking. I know my > experience in clubs has been counter-inutitive, that has helped > de-objectify women in my mind. And I just refuse to ignore that and > play politically correct. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
