I enjoyed and appreciated both Akasha's views and this post of yours. It strongly rsonates with my experience. Thanks.
--- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Akasha, I'm with you on this. > > I'm not going to try to address your points or bounce > off of them, because 1) it's late here, and 2) I'm a > compulsive straightener-uppoer, and I'd have to spend > a lot of time reformatting the lines you wrote to keep > them from wrapping and getting all ugly. :-) So what > I'll do is riff on your thoughts with some of mine. > > I am by nature a tantric, in the sense that I get off > on polarities. What I do for fun, and for spiritual fun, > is "surf energies," often the more polarized energies > the better. > > I *completely* understand your subjective experience of > having your tendency to objectify women *lessened* by > visiting a strip club. I have experienced exactly the > same thing. When I write, I often do it in public places. > Bars, cafes, whatever. When I really get into the writing, > the surroundings don't bother me. In fact, sometimes they > can help, especially if there is some polarity that exists > between what I am writing about and the environment in > which I am writing it. > > I wrote several of the stories in Road Trip Mind while > sitting at the bar of Yab Yum, the most famous brothel > in Amsterdam. I wasn't there to screw the women; I had a > kind of deal with the owner, who owed me a favor, and he > let me sit there and drink and write for free. And some > of the stories -- about Buddhism and the pursuit of > self discovery -- that emerged from that brothel were, > in my opinion, quite high, as was the subjective exper- > ience of writing them. > > One of the stories I wrote in the strip club in Detroit > was also spiritual, but set in that very club. There is > an odd tradition in Tibet in which women or men allow > themselves to be possessed for a short time by a benevo- > lent dakini. While they are possessed, they dance, and it > is considered a spiritual blessing to be present during > such a dance, because the shakti is just flying every- > where. So I invented a story in which one of these dakinis, > thinking she was possessing a holy woman in a Tibetan > temple, opens her eyes and finds that instead she has > possessed a stripper in this club. It was a real ball to > write, and again a very high subjective experience. And > the women in the bar just *loved* it when I showed it > to them. > > Anyway, to your points, I think that different people > have different predilections in life. Some, like you and > I, seem to be able to immerse ourselves in an environment > that many consider negative and low-vibe, and emerge from > the experience higher and purified. Go figure. Others, in > the exact same environment, would have their state of > attention lowered. Go figure again. > > If you are of the latter predilection, no amount of talk > or intellectual explanation is going to sway you from > your belief that strip clubs are low-vibe and/or that they > objectify women or somehow demean them. It's a "gut" feel- > ing for them; their body just *reacts* to certain stimuli > in a way that, for them, is not positive. Other people > react other ways. > > Me, I'm quite happy with my tantric approach to things, with > surfing weird and disparate energies and finding eternity > at both ends of the spectrum and at every point in between. > I'm often subjectively higher, and have clearer experiences > of witnessing, in the red light district of Amsterdam or > in a strip club than I do in a temple or supposed holy > place. Like you, I have to go with my subjective feeling, > even if it doesn't make any sense to people who have a more > traditional, right-and-wrong approach to these polarities. > > My favorite singer/songwriter, Bruce Cockburn, has a line > in one of his songs that, for me, captures this dance of > energies perfectly, and also captures the experience of > finding spiritual experiences in odd places, places that > other people might consider distinctly unholy: > > You see the extremes of what humans can be > And in that distance some tension's born > Energy surging like a storm > You plunge your hand in > You draw it back, scorched > Beneath it's shining like gold > But better > Rumours of glory... > > Unc > > > --- In [email protected], akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In [email protected], anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Just popped in to take a break and look around. Found this > thread. > > > Just curious if Akasha and others might address the question of > why > > > he/they experience such strong emotional energy around this > subject > > > as to feel compelled to write long defenses of his/their > positions > > > or critiques of others'. So some people like strip clubs and > others > > > don't. Big deal. And what's wrong or new about different people > > > having different values, beliefs or experiences? Thank goodness > > > people have options. > > > > I am happy to address this, though I believe some of your premises > are > > off target. > > > > I don't experience strong emotional energy around this subject, I > > experince strong intellectual energy around it. As I have stated in > > past posts, I find posting here can, not always is, a useful way to > > unfold paradoxes and unresolved points of view. First by working to > > articulate it. In the process one often learns alot more about their > > views. And second, to get some feedback. I love it when people say, > > "this points doesn't make sense. Or it contradicts these facts". I > am > > less enthralled when people say "you suck, you asshole, for making > > this point." > > > > I don't feel compelled. I can do it or drop it. If anything, there > is > > a drive of curiosity, where will this logic take me/us. > > > > I do not, in my view, write defenses of my positions. First, I often > > do not have firm positions. I may have sup-points that appear valid, > > and I will argue for them, and counter weak arguments against them, > in > > order to "test" the strength of the idea. But I am not defending > > anything. I have no firm positions. > > > > And I try not to critique others. I try to point out holes in some > > positions when warrented. And appplaud when good points are made, on > > either side of the issue. But I try to leave personal attacks out of > > it. And that includes imputing motives to others for what they > write. > > > > For example, some might mistakenly think that I am arguing for strip > > clubs. I am not. Actually, I find they have some negative aspects. > > What I am arguing is that exploitation and objectification of women, > > upon deeper analysis, and upon my own experience and observations, > do > > not appear to be realities or valid arguments in condeming clubs. > > My message is, no thats not a strong argument against clubs, dig > > deeper. As I am myself. I am not quite sure what bothers me about > some > > of the clubs, but its not the pat and to me trite answers of > > objectification and exploitation. > > > > Plus, I don't like to be guilt-triped into taking postitions for > which > > there is no strong evidence, or worse, which counter my expereince. > > But sometimes, I conceede to conventional views and sigh with > eveyone > > else when a loaded neutron bomb word like "objectification" is > thrown > > terrorist like into a discussion. It scares everyons silent. No one > > wants to be with 300 feet of the accusations of being an > objectifier, > > a racist, a mysoginist, etc. So they cave to such, igoring reason > and > > evidence. As I do cave sometimes, its often because I have not > really > > figured out why the conventional wisdom is wrong. Not so I can argue > > it persuasively. > > > > On this issue, I decided not to be embareassed or shamed into > silence > > by declarations of convetional progressive thinking. I know my > > experience in clubs has been counter-inutitive, that has helped > > de-objectify women in my mind. And I just refuse to ignore that and > > play politically correct. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
