Thank you for this Jim, I am reassured. If there is one thing that we, as human beings, should value above almost all else is the ability to FEEL. If I were to lose that, my capacity to FEEL love, hurt, ecstasy, pain, loss, euphoria then I am as good as dead. Worse in fact.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... <no_reply@...> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" <awoelflebater@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > "From all of those professing enlightenment on this forum, is it possible > > > to suffer in the state you're in? I think so but tell me, I am very > > > interested." > > > > > > Hi Ann. Gee, (looks around...looks around, again) I guess that's me. Do I > > > suffer? About two years ago, I was cutting a piece of wood in my shed, > > > and the blade slipped and cut my left index finger deeply. Immediately > > > afterwards, I had the presence of mind to be aware my body was in shock > > > and therefore not registering pain, which allowed me during that 15 > > > minute window, to both clean the wound thoroughly, and dress it properly, > > > before the pain set in. That, and a number of other examples, large and > > > small, stand as a good analogy to living an enlightened existence. > > > > > > Life still happens, even more vigorously than before, and yet, there is a > > > general abiding, an acceptance of whatever comes, and a reassurance that > > > life is exactly what I make of it. There ceases to be any separation > > > between me and the life I live. So any pain can be either avoided, or > > > greatly minimized. > > > > > > There is an apparent transition that occurs with spiritual liberation, or > > > enlightenment. The transition looks like a transition from surrender, to > > > becoming highly independent. What is hidden is the surrender, inherent in > > > the independence. Just like being a student of anything else, I get the > > > increasing freedom, if I continue to play by the rules. > > > > > > Because life is then lived on a background of increasing freedom, in > > > every domain, suffering just doesn't come up in the same context as it > > > used to. What I mean is that anything causing me physical or mental pain > > > used to hurt a lot more. Like being touched on an already sunburned patch > > > of skin. That is gone now, healed. > > > > > > So even though anyone who is enlightened continues to be human, and feels > > > pain, in terms of the chronic, overshadowing implications of the word, > > > "suffering", that is no longer there, past, present, or future. > > > > Thanks for your considered answer Doc. But more than the ability of failing > > to find oneself overshadowed, or shall we say traumatized, by physical pain > > what about deep mental anguish as in a far more profound situation? Let's > > say you have just learned that your wife and child have been brutally > > butchered at the hand of some sadistic home invader? I know this is a grim > > example but something that can and does happen all over the world in > > various contexts; beloved family members are routinely slaughtered by > > others for political, religious or just plain sadistic or drug-induced > > reasons. What would happen to that inner acceptance and peaceful awareness > > then? Perhaps this is impossible to say if you have never experienced the > > equivalent of something like this from the state you are now in. > > **Hi, that is such an extreme example, I have no idea what my reaction would > be. The one thing that is evident during a state of spiritual liberation, > because of the intimacy we acquire with our environment, is that there is a > sort of protection and understanding that comes about. Not artificially, but > just sort of a larger awareness of life. > > > > And another question would be, "Is suffering something necessary or useful > > or evolutionary in some way?" If we are ever beyond the ability/need to > > suffer is this because we do not require the 'benefits' any longer of what > > suffering can bring, if indeed, it has any benefits? Or, have we just moved > > past the karmic need for suffering; have we 'earned' some golden ticket to > > never have to suffer again once we are enlightened? Or, are we missing out, > > due to some sort of cosmic anaesthetic provided by enlightenment, on a deep > > and enriching experience we call "suffering"? > > **There is NOTHING anesthetic about no longer suffering. Yes, there is an > evolutionary benefit to suffering. Like the pain one feels when touching > fire, the idea is to examine why the suffering is happening to us, that we > may understand it, and stop it. So, if your question is, do we need to > continue suffering, the answer is no. It serves its purpose, but at some > point, just like wearing diapers, it is no longer useful. > > > > I am sounding a little Catholic here but that is only by fluke. I am not a > > practicing Catholic nor do I believe self flagellation and mortification of > > the flesh to be an undervalued pastime. However, I do know that I have > > become a much better person for having suffered, and profoundly so. > > Enlightenment sounds a bit scary in some ways. I think, that while we > > evidently gain things, we lose other abilities. > > **No. The only ability we lose when enlightenment comes, is to shield > ourselves from experience. Live becomes simply itself. There is nothing lost, > except that which obscures life. I still got to bawl my eyes out after > leaving my dying father for the last time. It isn't like we go dead inside. > It is just that rather than be beset by doubts and confusion, the world is a > more welcoming and nourishing place, in general. > > I love the idea of a full spectrum of experience being available to me. I > want what all five senses can tell me and I want to be able to feel all > emotions. I guess perhaps that is not possible; if you gain something there > is always something that has to be given up. I know this, it is one of the > truths for me in life. > > **The reason enlightenment seems like the same zero sum game as life in > ignorance, is because the unenlightened mind cannot conceive of a life that > is continually expanding, while at the same time growing more intimate and > personal. There is nothing lost, and everything gained. One of the most > profound and subtle lessons of enlightenment is accepting and living with > paradox. > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" <awoelflebater@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula > > > > > > <chivukula.ravi@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well dear Judy - good to know he wasn't suffering for me, 'cause > > > > > > > that's pretty insulting. But Amma is suffering for you and even > > > > > > > if you don't believe in her, her grace and compassion is with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Amma is enlightened she is not suffering. Like Jesus, according > > > > > > to Maharishi, Jesus didn't even suffer at the cross. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From another group, someone said that crucifixion causes vagal > > > > > stimulation which produces hallucination equivalent to an LSD trip. > > > > > But IMO, Jesus chose to suffer and die to fulfill his mission. > > > > > > > > From all of those professing enlightenment on this forum, is it > > > > possible to suffer in the state you're in? I think so but tell me, I am > > > > very interested. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This should set the record straight about what Maharishi thinks of > > > > > > suffering: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyPJaxF1S4w > > > > > > > > > > > > "Suffering is foreign to man's nature - suffering is foreign to > > > > > > nature. That's all" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
