It must be because people associate enlightenment and absence of suffering, and the unenlightened mind can only think of negation as a means to end suffering - "we'll cut away that, deaden this, ignore that the best we can, and eliminate all of that, over there, too". But instead, the transformation occurs at the source, everything else remains the same.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" <awoelflebater@...> wrote: > > > Thank you for this Jim, I am reassured. If there is one thing that we, as > human beings, should value above almost all else is the ability to FEEL. If I > were to lose that, my capacity to FEEL love, hurt, ecstasy, pain, loss, > euphoria then I am as good as dead. Worse in fact. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" <awoelflebater@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > "From all of those professing enlightenment on this forum, is it > > > > possible to suffer in the state you're in? I think so but tell me, I am > > > > very interested." > > > > > > > > Hi Ann. Gee, (looks around...looks around, again) I guess that's me. Do > > > > I suffer? About two years ago, I was cutting a piece of wood in my > > > > shed, and the blade slipped and cut my left index finger deeply. > > > > Immediately afterwards, I had the presence of mind to be aware my body > > > > was in shock and therefore not registering pain, which allowed me > > > > during that 15 minute window, to both clean the wound thoroughly, and > > > > dress it properly, before the pain set in. That, and a number of other > > > > examples, large and small, stand as a good analogy to living an > > > > enlightened existence. > > > > > > > > Life still happens, even more vigorously than before, and yet, there is > > > > a general abiding, an acceptance of whatever comes, and a reassurance > > > > that life is exactly what I make of it. There ceases to be any > > > > separation between me and the life I live. So any pain can be either > > > > avoided, or greatly minimized. > > > > > > > > There is an apparent transition that occurs with spiritual liberation, > > > > or enlightenment. The transition looks like a transition from > > > > surrender, to becoming highly independent. What is hidden is the > > > > surrender, inherent in the independence. Just like being a student of > > > > anything else, I get the increasing freedom, if I continue to play by > > > > the rules. > > > > > > > > Because life is then lived on a background of increasing freedom, in > > > > every domain, suffering just doesn't come up in the same context as it > > > > used to. What I mean is that anything causing me physical or mental > > > > pain used to hurt a lot more. Like being touched on an already > > > > sunburned patch of skin. That is gone now, healed. > > > > > > > > So even though anyone who is enlightened continues to be human, and > > > > feels pain, in terms of the chronic, overshadowing implications of the > > > > word, "suffering", that is no longer there, past, present, or future. > > > > > > Thanks for your considered answer Doc. But more than the ability of > > > failing to find oneself overshadowed, or shall we say traumatized, by > > > physical pain what about deep mental anguish as in a far more profound > > > situation? Let's say you have just learned that your wife and child have > > > been brutally butchered at the hand of some sadistic home invader? I know > > > this is a grim example but something that can and does happen all over > > > the world in various contexts; beloved family members are routinely > > > slaughtered by others for political, religious or just plain sadistic or > > > drug-induced reasons. What would happen to that inner acceptance and > > > peaceful awareness then? Perhaps this is impossible to say if you have > > > never experienced the equivalent of something like this from the state > > > you are now in. > > > > **Hi, that is such an extreme example, I have no idea what my reaction > > would be. The one thing that is evident during a state of spiritual > > liberation, because of the intimacy we acquire with our environment, is > > that there is a sort of protection and understanding that comes about. Not > > artificially, but just sort of a larger awareness of life. > > > > > > And another question would be, "Is suffering something necessary or > > > useful or evolutionary in some way?" If we are ever beyond the > > > ability/need to suffer is this because we do not require the 'benefits' > > > any longer of what suffering can bring, if indeed, it has any benefits? > > > Or, have we just moved past the karmic need for suffering; have we > > > 'earned' some golden ticket to never have to suffer again once we are > > > enlightened? Or, are we missing out, due to some sort of cosmic > > > anaesthetic provided by enlightenment, on a deep and enriching experience > > > we call "suffering"? > > > > **There is NOTHING anesthetic about no longer suffering. Yes, there is an > > evolutionary benefit to suffering. Like the pain one feels when touching > > fire, the idea is to examine why the suffering is happening to us, that we > > may understand it, and stop it. So, if your question is, do we need to > > continue suffering, the answer is no. It serves its purpose, but at some > > point, just like wearing diapers, it is no longer useful. > > > > > > I am sounding a little Catholic here but that is only by fluke. I am not > > > a practicing Catholic nor do I believe self flagellation and > > > mortification of the flesh to be an undervalued pastime. However, I do > > > know that I have become a much better person for having suffered, and > > > profoundly so. Enlightenment sounds a bit scary in some ways. I think, > > > that while we evidently gain things, we lose other abilities. > > > > **No. The only ability we lose when enlightenment comes, is to shield > > ourselves from experience. Live becomes simply itself. There is nothing > > lost, except that which obscures life. I still got to bawl my eyes out > > after leaving my dying father for the last time. It isn't like we go dead > > inside. It is just that rather than be beset by doubts and confusion, the > > world is a more welcoming and nourishing place, in general. > > > > I love the idea of a full spectrum of experience being available to me. I > > want what all five senses can tell me and I want to be able to feel all > > emotions. I guess perhaps that is not possible; if you gain something there > > is always something that has to be given up. I know this, it is one of the > > truths for me in life. > > > > **The reason enlightenment seems like the same zero sum game as life in > > ignorance, is because the unenlightened mind cannot conceive of a life that > > is continually expanding, while at the same time growing more intimate and > > personal. There is nothing lost, and everything gained. One of the most > > profound and subtle lessons of enlightenment is accepting and living with > > paradox. > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" <awoelflebater@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 <no_reply@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula > > > > > > > <chivukula.ravi@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well dear Judy - good to know he wasn't suffering for me, > > > > > > > > 'cause that's pretty insulting. But Amma is suffering for you > > > > > > > > and even if you don't believe in her, her grace and compassion > > > > > > > > is with you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Amma is enlightened she is not suffering. Like Jesus, > > > > > > > according to Maharishi, Jesus didn't even suffer at the cross. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From another group, someone said that crucifixion causes vagal > > > > > > stimulation which produces hallucination equivalent to an LSD trip. > > > > > > But IMO, Jesus chose to suffer and die to fulfill his mission. > > > > > > > > > > From all of those professing enlightenment on this forum, is it > > > > > possible to suffer in the state you're in? I think so but tell me, I > > > > > am very interested. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This should set the record straight about what Maharishi thinks > > > > > > > of suffering: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyPJaxF1S4w > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Suffering is foreign to man's nature - suffering is foreign to > > > > > > > nature. That's all" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
