The claim that the practice of TM is 100% is a bold claim to make, but I guess you could defend in on a theoretical basis by stating the the technique relies on the natural state of the mind to go to a field of greater charm, etc.
The claim is that pure consciousness is the home of all the laws of nature etc. Look, I'm not defending it, I'm just saying what is the rationale behind it. Do with it what you want. But here's where I think you get off track. You have this notion that it is always a straight line to go from point A to point B, and rarely is it a straight line in real life. If you are talking about spiritual development, it is a path fraught with peril, at least in my experience. So, for you to say that the effects of TM and expanding of awareness may be too much for some to handle, I'd have to say you are correct. I've seen it myself. But as Jim said a couple days ago, I'm not sure what other pursuit is more worthwhile. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : Steve you are missing a lot yourself, beginning with your assertion that I have a "misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing." Where the hell do you think I got that notion? Look at the TM literature, look at the crap Tom Ball, Bob Roth and Ken Chawkin just to name a few of the TM shills out there, look at the PR they constantly bandy about as to the effects of TM. The TMO and Marshy in his day say TM is for EVERYONE. It is 100% life supporting with NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS. None at all. I don't have any misguided notions of what I think TM is capable of doing. I know it is much much less than the TMO advertises. The assertions I refer to are purely what Marshy and the TMO advertise. When it is presented the way it is, when the real effects are quite different (the so-called unstressing) AND when you add to those two things the constant and unrelenting habit the TM leaders and managers have of refuting all evidence off problems, and the TMO's response to people with real problems "You're just unstressing." "Get your meditation checked." You have with all those things together a recipe for disaster. If TM is as advertised, suicide would not happen in long term TM populations and you know it. For God's sake these asses claim to be able to create world peace and the result is pundits rioting. From: "steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM, but if it REALLY is fabulous for you, why aren't you working for the Movement and living in a TM facility. Be real with it Steve. Even Charlie Lutes said that TM was not for everyone. He said that from time to time in lectures. When people would come to Charlie with problems, he would sometimes tell them to cut back on the TM practice, some were told to do it for only a few, maybe five minutes. Mark my words, when someone collects the info on all these TM suicides and makes it public, it will be the beginning of the downfall of the Movement. From: "steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE "side effects" to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other "negative" emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. From: "awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <awoelflebater@...> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <geezerfreak@...> wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm Now this is supremely sad. It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I expect this level of zeal from people who convert to the TM belief system when they are adults but to see that level of believerism in someone so young really disturbs me. Any religious education disturbs me actually, I don't think we have the right to influence development in this way. Religion is like language, the first one you learn stays with you as part of you. Save it until you are grown up and wise enough to know better I say, childhood should be for exploration and learning how to judge things critically. But we don't know why he killed himself. It could have nothing to do with TM or his participation in it. Just because a tennis player kills themselves doesn't mean it was because they were disillusioned by tennis. There could be millions of other factors coming to play here. Or, am I missing something?
