--- In [email protected], "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > If that's your point, it's a bit odd that you were > > > > including me at all, since I was arguing that the > > > > intellect cannot grasp what enlightenment is. > > > > > > **** > > > How do you know this Judy? > > > > > > Some people who claim to be enlightened, or appear to have a lot > of > > > wisdom say that this is true. When they say it, it never appears > to > > > be an "argument" for them, simply an innocent statement about > how > > > they experience, or an expression of frustration about > > > communicating their experience. > > > > > > Is it a valid thing to *argue* "that the intellect cannot grasp > > > what enlightenment is" from the point of view of one who is not > > > enlightened? Does this not imply a strong adherence to a belief > > > rather than a statement of fact? > > > > No, it's a logical deduction, as I went on > > to explain: > > > > > > I've said here and on alt.m.t a number of times that > > > > when you take any of MMY's teachings, or any authentic > > > > intellectual teaching about consciousness, and take > > > > it right down to the nitty-gritty, you end up in > > > > contradiction or infinite regress, which is what > > > > Self-reference looks like to the "mistaken" intellect. > > > > > > > > I quoted MMY as an example of that. > > > > > > > > And yes, what I just expressed is a concept, but > > > > it's a concept about the nature of the limits of > > > > the intellect, not about enlightenment per se. > > > > > > **** > > > These words have a coherent meaning. But they seem to side step > the > > > questions that I posed above. > > > > I suggest you think again. Hint: I'm using > > "Self-reference" as a sort of synonym for the > > nature of enlightenment because MMY has indicated > > that's its nature. You could just substitute > > "enlightenment" for "Self-reference" if you like, > > although it isn't really necessary. > > > If I may leap into the fray... There appear to be two distinctions > here. One, can the intellect locate the Self, or enlightenment? and > Two, can it subsequently be described? > > My take on this, if I may, is that the intellect easily locates the > Self.
Hooboy. OK, I'm using "Self-reference" in a *very* different sense, along the lines of Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach," if you've ever read that, or Amit Goswami's "Self-Aware Universe." MMY uses it that way in some contexts, but now that I read your question, I realize he uses it in a simpler, nonparadoxical way in other contexts. I don't have time to get further into this at the moment; I'll try to pick it up again later. For now, think of the phrase Hagelin quotes from some piece of Vedic (?) literature: "Curving back on myself, I create again and again." However, it is impossible to describe unless we are speaking > with someone who is enlightened and then it is more of a non-verbal > acknowledgement between the interested parties. That is precisely > why so much is written about the experience of enlightenment- it is > Infinite, it is the realization of the Infinite within and out. > Can't say enough about it, and yet, just like chocolate, it really > must be experienced to be understood. > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
