"Consciousness can only become more subtle and refined and that is what happens after death."
You reckon no one here can logically beat this? This is crap for a start, seems like it's the killer punch to its own credibility. But the rest of it is interesting if you like that sort of thing, but seems to have been caused by the problem of the brain not being able to see how it works by looking at itself. That's why we think there are two things going on in there when they are really aspects of the same thing and I don't see how we can have one without the other. You'll tie yourself in knots trying to turn round fast enough to see how the mind pulls off the trick, maybe you'll go crazy and think there's some sort of eternal aspect to our selves that is beyond our understanding. It sure seems like that but then I fall asleep and the illusion (however it works) disappears. That's what fuels all this speculation, the fact we can't imagine not being here. If you put it all into an evolutionary perspective you lose all the mystical confusion by realising the whole thing has been added to and refined but that type of refining (jn fact the only type) is always a bodge-up there isn't a single part of our bodies that works as well as it would if it had been designed and I see no reason why the brain should be different. But people don't like thinking about it like that, it collapses the wave form away from us being some sort of mystically superior being. But we could probably work out quite easily what previous life forms would have had upstairs, the only difference between us and them is this ability to create endless metaphors. So it's all constructs really, and it's the constructs that are aware of themselves even if they never come to a conclusion about how they work. The problem here is the metaphors taking themselves too seriously. You probably think that's ducking the question but it's just avoiding getting pulled into the endless cycle of ever more mysterious sophistry. We won't work it out how minds work from the inside, at least no one ever has, so it's probably be a good idea to hang five and work out how it's all actually put together and start again from there. ---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote : noozguru wrote : "Close your eyes and tells us where your awareness ends." Every time I write about this stuff I get just a bit more able to keep to the central issues. So on that level, I thank you for the reply. Awareness is not consciousness. You, above, used the word "your" as if my ego (or my nervous system, my mind, my brain and/or my Being -- take your pick) had some sort of natural right to "own" awareness as if "it" were some sort of personal "thing" over which I would have some sort of hegemony. BAH! Awareness is beyond beginnings and endings -- it's not a dimensional thing or "it" or whatever -- if you have a category, piss off, awareness is beyond it no matter what. Whatever my mind is able to do is a product of my nervous system -- NOT AWARENESS. Compare: Awareness "is" beyond the "does or does not;" whereas, mind is a processing of, what?, billions of chemical operations per "thought?" THAT'S NOT AWARENESS. Awareness is not a doing or non-doing. It's not an "it." It's not in or out of existence. That which is aware is awareness solely -- consciousness merely attempts to chemically embody and internally structure itself to symbolize awareness -- this is labeled "I am." If a thought comes, "I am" changes to "I am that thought." That's consciousness pretending it is sentient. BAH. Consciousness is an identity whore. The monkey who will jump to any branch -- that's the Ved symbol for how the mind attends to its processes -- NOT how awareness or identity is "changing or moving or whatever." Awareness is beyond isness and isnotness. Consciousness (Being) is all about parochial expression in a nervous system. (I'm willing to grant that maybe the universe is a giant nervous system and that that would be the foundation of our understanding of the term, "universal consciousness." Remember, I'm not the person saying this shit. I'm merely reporting Advaita axioms -- why? -- because I think we'd all be edified to see this CRUCIAL difference between these two concepts of awareness and consciousness. The concept, awareness, is merely a place holder for "we don't have a way to conceptualize this non-this non-thingy thingy." Had enough of me? Don't blame you, so here's Nisargadatta -- who was the real deal as far as I can tell from my many years of reading his shit. But what would I know? One thing I bet is that no one here can best his logic about the present issue. Here: "Maharaj: The present 'I am' is as false as the 'I was' and 'I shall be'. It is merely an idea in the mind, an impression left by memory, and the separate identity it creates is false. This habit of referring to a false centre must be done away with, the notion 'I see', 'I feel', 'I think', 'I do', must disappear from the field of consciousness; what remains when the false is no more, is real." and: "There can be no transition from consciousness to awareness, for awareness is not a form of consciousness. Consciousness can only become more subtle and refined and that is what happens after death. As the various vehicles of man die off, the modes of consciousness induced by them also fade away." ---In [email protected], <noozguru@...> wrote : Close your eyes and tells us where your awareness ends. On 12/15/2014 01:59 PM, Duveyoung wrote: What the fuck's with youse guys -- I post a few comic blurbs about awareness not being consciousness, and all I get is "you're a putz" and "age?" How very fucking indecent of you -- those are two INHUMAN responses. Utterly void of good intent. These are your fucking personalities? -- this is what you get up with in the morning? You life is funzies only if you're able to maliciously heap up on someone with a strong opinion where you have, it seems, killed that area of your brains that could support that opinion? -- with previously indulged in hate, anger, life-long recriminations of failure? -- WHAT? HOLY FUCK, HOW MISERABLE ARE YOU? It's shit like those responses that ENCOURAGE Willy etc. He's just too stupid to mount up to your level of smarm. That makes you his mentor. Have either of you two ever tried to get ONE TRUTH explicated, deconstructed, approached, hinted at? -- anything you can brag about having brought to this community that is, you know, SPIRITUALLY WORTH ANYONE'S NOTICE? "Awareness is not consciousness." That's fucking gold. That could be the start of ten thousand good conversations. What have you brought to this community that has this clarifying power? Fuck your history, your celebrity name dropping, your travel shit, your computers-honcho shit, your astrology shit, your Sanskrit shit, your tantra shit, -- NAME ONE THING TRUE YOU'VE CHAMPIONED that has any value in helping other here gain clarity about the human condition. At best you're parroting other opinions instead of trying to ferret out the truth with the minds that come here every day and willing to do that spade work. You're both a couple of righteous ass pricks as far as your actions here go. Snobs. But your're nothing-known-very-well snobs -- the worse kind. At best, you're C+ personalities. You're whistling past the graveyard on most topics -- afraid you'll be found lacking. I admit my many difficulties arriving at clarity, but you two strut around here like you're on some sort of stilts, and you do so when there's folks here that outrank you in every way possible: spiritual, psychological, sociological, career-wise, money-wise, IQ-wise, heart-wise, education-wise, world-experience-wise, and on and on, and you two just are the spitball champs snickering in the back of the class. It's low. It's small. It's not gunna get ya into a high heaven. And worst of all, your spitballs are pathetic -- you don't even have a Don Rickles funny-side to your posts -- no bite, no irony, no satire -- all we get from you two is a total lack of creativity in every single post I've ever read of yours -- and I read almost all of them. You both stink of ego that's been hardened into a sour POV that's just not going to get straightened out in the life left to you. Sucks, eh? ---In [email protected], <noozguru@...> wrote : Close your eyes and tells us where your awareness ends. On 12/15/2014 01:59 PM, Duveyoung wrote: What the fuck's with youse guys -- I post a few comic blurbs about awareness not being consciousness, and all I get is "you're a putz" and "age?" How very fucking indecent of you -- those are two INHUMAN responses. Utterly void of good intent. These are your fucking personalities? -- this is what you get up with in the morning? You life is funzies only if you're able to maliciously heap up on someone with a strong opinion where you have, it seems, killed that area of your brains that could support that opinion? -- with previously indulged in hate, anger, life-long recriminations of failure? -- WHAT? HOLY FUCK, HOW MISERABLE ARE YOU? It's shit like those responses that ENCOURAGE Willy etc. He's just too stupid to mount up to your level of smarm. That makes you his mentor. Have either of you two ever tried to get ONE TRUTH explicated, deconstructed, approached, hinted at? -- anything you can brag about having brought to this community that is, you know, SPIRITUALLY WORTH ANYONE'S NOTICE? "Awareness is not consciousness." That's fucking gold. That could be the start of ten thousand good conversations. What have you brought to this community that has this clarifying power? Fuck your history, your celebrity name dropping, your travel shit, your computers-honcho shit, your astrology shit, your Sanskrit shit, your tantra shit, -- NAME ONE THING TRUE YOU'VE CHAMPIONED that has any value in helping other here gain clarity about the human condition. At best you're parroting other opinions instead of trying to ferret out the truth with the minds that come here every day and willing to do that spade work. You're both a couple of righteous ass pricks as far as your actions here go. Snobs. But your're nothing-known-very-well snobs -- the worse kind. At best, you're C+ personalities. You're whistling past the graveyard on most topics -- afraid you'll be found lacking. I admit my many difficulties arriving at clarity, but you two strut around here like you're on some sort of stilts, and you do so when there's folks here that outrank you in every way possible: spiritual, psychological, sociological, career-wise, money-wise, IQ-wise, heart-wise, education-wise, world-experience-wise, and on and on, and you two just are the spitball champs snickering in the back of the class. It's low. It's small. It's not gunna get ya into a high heaven. And worst of all, your spitballs are pathetic -- you don't even have a Don Rickles funny-side to your posts -- no bite, no irony, no satire -- all we get from you two is a total lack of creativity in every single post I've ever read of yours -- and I read almost all of them. You both stink of ego that's been hardened into a sour POV that's just not going to get straightened out in the life left to you. Sucks, eh?
