From: "s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
I see you're in troll mode today. Me? YOU are the one replying to a post that wasn't sent to you, just so you can dump on me. :-) Re "Reposted it in case someone had anything intelligent to say about it. Too bad you didn't": Define "intelligent". I wasn't exactly having a rant! Re "I'm sorry you thought my post was "tacky." I think your reply was somewhat more so.": You think wrong. Whatever. What probably misled me was you calling my alternative take on a fictional character a "slur." I had forgotten how attached people can get to their fictional characters. I should probably consider myself lucky that you didn't consider my presentation of an alternate Santa Claus a "slur" against *his* good name and go ballistic about that as well. :-) Re "As you actually imply in your reply, s3raphita, she should have looked at being told she was about to get knocked up by god as a "unique, world-historical privilege." You don't see a little MALE "privilege" built into this concept?": The idea that if a god makes a move on a human they are *equal* partners is a little naive. Gods have privileges denied to lesser mortals. Not so sure about the MALE bit either. In the legend of Hippolytus, Aphrodite is the cause of his death. He scorned the worship of Aphrodite, preferring Artemis. Aphrodite caused his stepmother, Phaedra, to fall in love with him, knowing Hippolytus would reject her. This led to Phaedra's suicide, and the death of Hippolytus. So goddesses can be bitches just as gods can be pigs. Hint: gods and goddesses are fictional. So are the Bible stories and myths you're describing. HOWEVER, they have import for the people who read them AS stories. The story is, in fact, what they remember, not that "it's a metaphor for something." So when you've got gods and goddesses treating themselves like masters and treating the humans they interact with as their slaves, that *story* -- that relationship -- leaves an impression. I am suggesting there is something wrong with the basic stories. You seem just fine with them. I would write this off as "different strokes for different folks" and forget it, except that you *also* seem fine with the idea that Mary *should* feel grateful and privileged for being selected as a brood mare for a god in one of these stories. I kinda think that this attitude -- coming as it does *from* a woman -- kinda proves my point. The story had lasting impact on those who heard it, and I'm not convinced that the lasting impact was a good one. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote : Just to follow up, I found time to read a Babelfished version of the German article, and found it interesting. But not interesting enough to really comment on. Thanks, though for your comments, and the invitation to a discussion. Trouble is, I am the furthest person you have ever met from a Biblical scholar, or even a person with any interest in the Bible. It's not that I haven't read it; it's that I have, and don't have the slightest desire to *ever* read it again. So although I can see that the changing views over time of these various books of the Bible, influenced by the politics and the social forces of various eras, would be fascinating to those who know those books, it isn't fascinating to me because I don't. To clarify about my unwillingness to correct this deficiency and learn more about the Bible, it's more a preference issue for me than it is a religious/atheist issue. I still read the occasional "spiritual" work for purposes of inspiration. The issue is that I'm just not *inspired* by most of the stories in the Bible. They just don't turn me on or resonate with my inner being. They often seem simplistic or obvious or distasteful or all of the above. If I were looking to read things that are regarded as scriptures and actually be *inspired* by them, I'd have to turn to Tibetan works, or Native American shaman tales. Or old Celtic or Norse myths. I don't know why this is. I just can't get it up for *any* of the three major Middle Eastern monotheist religions, or their scriptures. Given how all three have turned out over these last 2-3 millennia, I'm not exactly drawn to them as a source of wisdom. :-) From: "TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period Good response. I have to work today so don't have time to dive into the translation of the German article or reply in depth (and may not have anything to say when I do have time), but your mention of the political and social forces that influenced the different books of the Bible reminded me of -- of all things -- this article that I stumbled upon yesterday. In it, the author Phil Zuckerman rather eloquently deals with the rise of secularism and pooh-poohs the rather egotistic notion from "modern atheists" that THEY are responsible for it. He makes some valid points that reveal the political and sociological forces that have been working for many years to move people away from belief in religion and towards belief in more humanist philosophies. We’re putting an end to religion: Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher and the exploding new American secularism | | | | | | | | | | | We’re putting an end to religion: Richard Dawkins, Bill ...Religious right extremism, new atheists & late-night mockery have religion on the run. American secularism's rising | | | | View on www.salon.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | From: aryavazhi <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period "Ilike thinking about religion and spirituality in "out of the box" ways,ways that approach the old stories from new perspectives, and thatchallenge us to step out of the conditioned boxes we've been taught tothink within and approach these stories from wholly new perspectives.". I too like 'out-of-the box' thinking. I just recently came across this article in a German magazine: Das Buch der Bücher: "Zum historischen Kern wurde einfach hinzugedichtet" - SPIEGEL ONLINE Wow - that really did it for me. If you happen to know German, somewhat at least, or if you can find a somwhat acceptable online translator - Google translate is sometimes okay, just to get an idea - it seems too much to translate it now, or even summarize it somewhat. The article makes a point that the whole collections of books in the bible spans a time frame of about 1000 years. The article is an interview with a biblical historian, probably a theologian as well, about the emergence of the different books, the time frame, and the social and political reasons behind it. What really struck me, was how recent this all is. 1000 years seem to be a long time, but if you look at it a little closer, the older books of the old testament, the pentateuch, was only fixed and finalized a few centuries before Christ, maybe 6 centuries before. And it was mainly a text of law. If you extrapolate this to our time, it's like saying, we have here this very ancient book from the 15 century, the book of all beginnings. Come on, how old is that? Of course antiquity doesn't mean anything really, but that it has some value is still lurking in our subconscious somehow. And if you look at his analysis, it's all political. He says, that what is called 'Babylonean exile' was just concerning a few elite people who were taken there, away from palestine. When they were released from the exile, they tried to impose their own religion - that is basically, what they had adopted abroad, like monotheism in persia I think, so they came back as an elite, and tried to establish themselves by publishing some lawbooks - the pentateuch - weaving it in with some other, known and older stories, and establish the temple they were building, in Jerusalem, as the center of their power. There was a competing temple elsewhere, and they tried to fight, and I think destroyed the other temple. This is portrayed in the bible as the fight with other tribes, but it wasn't, it was really their own palestine people they were trying to rule, who hadn't followed to the exile. And it seems that Salomon had belonged to the other group. Again, the united the two groups of people by making Abraham the father of Jacob, but originally there were two tribes, one thinking themselves to be in the lineage of Abraham, the other's being the lineage of Jacob, but with this trick, they united the people. Not that I expected that the bible is historically acurate, but it still strikes me, how this emergence of it, the way it came to be, actually spans just a few centuries - if you think of the real long history of human beings on earth - it's just nothing. Of course these men made the rules to dominate their people in their time, and it reflects the social status of these people. In my opinion, this is all political. That is of course not only true for Judaism and Christianity - which was formed to be a state-religion by the Romans. But then in Hinduism, which is anyway more like a collection of religions, there I recently heard, that there is a version, where Ravanna is the good guy, and not Rama, there are temples dedicated to Ravanna in Sri Lanka, and according to their story, Ravanna was married to Sita, and Rama abducted her. There are even temples of Ravanna on mainland India, and he is also regarded as an incarnation of Shiva. And just think how Rama abundoned Sita and put her on a fire-test(!). Then, one of the most famous Shiva temples is Rameshvara, where Rama, an incarnation of Vishnu, worshipped Shiva, just on the way to Lanka. Hello? Looks like a rededication of a temple to me, and that didn't happen the first time, it happened many times. wrt the bible I think the later philosophical and theological interpretations are on a much higher level than any of the original books where. The same may be true for much of Hinduism. | | | | | | Das Buch der Bücher: "Zum historischen Kern wurde e... Der Bibelwissenschaftler Ernst Axel Knauf über die Entstehung der Bibel, die literarische Kunst ihrer Verfasser und das Neue am Neuen Testament. | | | View on www.spiegel.de | Preview by Yahoo | | | ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote : From: "TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period I merely found an interesting and provocative article, and reposted it in case someone had anything intelligent to say about it. Too bad you didn't. >From the article: "Many Christians are surprised when told that nowhere in the >Bible, either Old Testament or New, does any writer say that a woman’s consent >is necessary or even desirable before sex." ******************************************************************* I'm going to follow up on this, because 1) it's part of a pattern I see on FFL, 2) it ties in with other posts I've made here, and similar reactions to them, and 3) I'm a little surprised that it's actually YOU doing the reacting this time, s3raphita. I like thinking about religion and spirituality in "out of the box" ways, ways that approach the old stories from new perspectives, and that challenge us to step out of the conditioned boxes we've been taught to think within and approach these stories from wholly new perspectives. Thus I really *liked* Valerie Tarico's article. I think she brought up a valid and interesting point about religion, and not just Western or Christian religion -- that women have *zero* rights within those religions, at least when it comes to "doing what they're told to do," by either gods, or people claiming to represent those gods. I *like* "out of the box" stuff like this. In fact, I recently made another post in which I touched on a (to me) similar subject: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/407749 That one got little action in terms of discussion, and for (I suspect) a similar reason -- it asked respondents to think outside the box, and approach a spiritual book (the Bhagavad-Gita) from a new perspective. My point in my post was similar to Valerie's in hers -- no one ever asked Arjuna's *permission* to tell him what to do. It was *expected* that because he was being talked to (not to mention talked down to) by a god or the representation of one on earth (Krishna) that he *HAD* to do what the god told him to do. Arjuna had no choice. He was, in fact, told that his discrimination and sense of compassion and right and wrong were CRAP, and that he should just dump that wimp thinking and go out and kill people, the way Krishna (his better) told him to. Now think about Valerie's article and Mary's story. Was she offered a *choice*? She was not. She was TOLD what to do by a god. And, like all people (male and female) in these "scriptural" stories, she just *did what she was told to do*. As you actually imply in your reply, s3raphita, she should have looked at being told she was about to get knocked up by god as a "unique, world-historical privilege." You don't see a little MALE "privilege" built into this concept? Not to mention GOD "privilege?" Mary wasn't *asked* if she'd like to be a part of this; she was TOLD that it was gonna happen. As Valerie points out, she reacted to this by invoking the duties of a *slave* -- "Behold the bond slave of the Lord; be it done to me." Is this *really* the relationship you feel a human being has to god -- slave to master? T'would seem that both Jehovah in his actions towards Mary and Krishna in his actions towards Arjuna feel that this is the nature of the relationship they have with these humans -- master-slave, with both Mary and Arjuna doing what they're told I'm sorry you thought my post was "tacky." I think your reply was somewhat more so. Every so often I post a piece of my own writing here or forward someone else's that is *supposed* to challenge people's thinking and inspire them to discuss the tired old subjects we deal with on this forum in new and interesting ways. Some people obviously are more comfortable with the tired old ways, and that is their right -- they don't have to either read or reply to my "out of the box" posts. When they do, and by trying to put them down as "tacky" or demonstrating a "low level of consciousness" I interpret this as people trying to assert their supposed supremacy based on staying in the box and trying to demonize anyone who strays out of it. In other words, cult thinking. If anyone has the cojones to discuss out of the box subjects without trying to hit me with your box, I'm up for it... From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Wow! That's tacky. As we're about to celebrate one of the main events in the Christian calendar, to link the birth of Christ with "rape culture" shows a low level of consciousness. Thinking about it it does occur to me that I could turn your slur against you. The whole point of the Nativity narrative in Luke's gospel is to contrast the pomp and glory of worldly power with the story of a threatened child born into abject poverty. A member of the "underclass" as we'd say today. If the child really was the bastard product of a brutal rape that would only emphasize his lack of status in the eyes of the social elite. Social status is conventional; our true nature transcends social roles. That's what our Christian brethren are expressing in mythological imagery. There is no shortage of sexual exploitation in The Bible and The Koran - seems odd to highlight the Virgin Birth which is manifestly presented as a unique, world-historical privilege and must have contributed more than any other factor to a reverence for women in the West. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote : It's not, after all, as if anyone asked for Mary's consent when knocking her up, right? Why rape is so intrinsic to religion | | | | | | | | | | | Why rape is so intrinsic to religionStories like the virgin birth lack freely given female consent. 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