You're starting to scare me, feste, so I'm going to curtail any further
discussions of this with you. It's like you have this blind spot about
religion, deceiving you into thinking that if something calls itself a religion
it has to be "respected," no matter how aberrant its beliefs may be.
If you honestly think that there is, has ever been, or ever will be a time in
human history in which it is permissible to kill a human being for making a
drawing of another human being, then I'm sorry but you're as crazy as the
radical Islamists are.
From: feste37 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Religious Mind
It is easy to talk grandly on a Yahoo group about the“responsibilities of
thinking people,” but I stick to my original point:deliberate provocation of
Muslims by means of grotesque cartoons serves theinterests of no one. They
drive the Muslims crazy and for what purpose? I used to be an editor of a
newsmagazine, and we publishedcartoons, which I was responsible for selecting.
This was in the days beforeradical Islam was perceived as a threat, so I don’t
recall seeing any thatmocked Islam, but we wouldn’t have printed them. Such
cartoons are in badtaste.
---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
From: feste37 <[email protected]>
If you deliberately go around provoking people, youshouldn’t be surprised if
eventually they lash out at you.
Yes, you actually should. Especially when what you so euphemistically call
"lashing out" involves Kalashnikovs and killing 12 people *for making fun of
someone who died 1383 years ago*. You're describing insanity and trying to make
it sound as if the insane are somehow justified in being this insane because
someone drew a cartoon they didn't like. I hate to be the one to tell you this,
but taking this stance is making YOU sound as insane as the people who
perpetrated this massacre.
If I am a rich manand I decide to walk in a low-income, high-crime area with
hundred-dollar billsattached to my clothing, I will likely get robbed. The
thieves are wrong tocommit robbery, but I must also bear some responsibility
for acting stupidly,since I know how much money means to people and what they
may do to get it. Thisis not blaming the victim but applying common sense and
acting accordingly. OtherwiseI put myself at risk as well as innocent others.
So you think that what 3/4 of the world's population should do is just keep
quiet and never say *anything* that challenges what the insane lunatic fringe
of the other 1/4 holds sacred. You feel that people should submit to threats of
violence and do whatever those who are threatening them tell them to do, eh?
Well, if you want to live your life as a frightened little rabbit, fine. But
don't suggest that those who don't want to live that way should. And don't
suggest that when the insane people finally go over the top and carry through
on their threats that it's somehow the fault of those who -- unlike you --
refused to be bullied.
It is the *responsibility* of thinking people on this planet to point out how
insane and out of touch with reality this lunatic fringe of Islam is. To do so
is not without risk, given HOW insane these people are, but the alternative is
to live like frightened sheep, something you seem to be advising.
---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
From: feste37 <[email protected]>
I see noreason to alter what I wrote. Insults from you are to be expected.
After all,that’s what you do, isn’t it? Two years ago, the French government
condemnedthe cartoons as needlessly provocative. See French magazine sparks
another controversy over Mohammed cartoons. I am notsaying the magazine should
be prevented from publishing them; only that to doso was ill-advised.
No problemo, feste. Thanks for clarifying your position.
I assume you also feel that women who are raped were ill-advised to wear
clothes that make them look like women, and that black people shot by the
police while just walking down the street were ill-advised to not bleach their
skins to look white. You're riding the "Blame the victim" bus. Now it all makes
sense.
| |
| | | | French magazine sparks another controversy over ... A French
satire magazine has published a special issue containing cartoons on the life
of Islam’s Prophet Mohammed. Similar images, which are deemed blasphemo... | |
| View on rt.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
From: feste37 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 12:37 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Religious Mind
Lampooning others' beliefs may be a tradition in the Westbut the Muslims don't
like it so I see no purpose in doing it in cartoons that insultthe prophet. It
only brings negative results, as we have seen.
I simply cannot believe that someone on this forum is dumb enough to believe
this, feste. You are in effect saying, "Lampooning the beliefs of people who
have threatened to kill us if we lampoon their ideas is a bad idea, because
they might kill us." An attitude like yours essentially ALLOWS these people
stuck in the Middle Ages to dictate to the world how they should act. The
people making these threats are terrorists. The people submitting to them are
perpetuating terrorism.
"The prophet" was just a man, as was almost every other spiritual figure in
history (unless they were women). People should just get over their fantasies
about these men and women.
These are thecartoons this magazine published:The Controversial Cartoons That
Are Said To Have Inspired The Terrorist Attack Against Charlie Hebdo. “In 2012,
the magazine includedmultiple caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad in which he
appeared naked; onewas called “Mohammad: a star is born,” and showed a man bent
over so his beardwas the only thing covering the lower half of his body. The
cover depictedMohammad in a wheelchair being pushed by an Orthodox Jew.”
I wouldn’t haveadvised this magazine to publish any of these, and indeed the
French governmentadvised the same. You have to remember that in Islam the
prophet is notdepicted. It is considered sacrilegious to do so (see the
article). No good will come from it. Itis just being offensive for the sake of
it.
| |
| | | | The Controversial Cartoons That Are Said To Have Inspi... At
least 12 were killed in a terrorist attack on the magazine's offices today. | |
| View on thinkprogress.org | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
---In [email protected], <s3raphita@...> wrote :
---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :
Ah, the bravery of the liberals who think they have a perfect right to insult
anyone's cherished beliefs just because they want to.
Brave for sure. They just paid with their lives.
Generally speaking, it's not a good idea to insult other people's religion.
They don't like it and it is not helpful to the situation. You should have
learned that in grade school.
Lampooning others' beliefs is a time-honoured tradition in the West.
---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]>
It's an odd kind of duty to publish cartoons that mock the founder of one of
the world's largest religions in the way that is plainly meant to be deeply
offensive to adherents of that faith. You say things cut both ways, and the
matter of respecting the faith of others does also.
Why should anyone *respect* a faith they regard as intolerant ofgays or women
or free speech? Respect has to be earned. I support anyone's right to criticize
Islam as robustly and satirically as they wish; just as I support someone's
right to argue that liberal attitudes to sexuality are repugnant. Let everyone
say what they wish; we can listen to their claims and come to our own
conclusions. What are you afraid of?
Thank you for saying this.
There is this terrible meme we have inherited for centuries -- both in the East
and in the West -- that says, "If we call it 'religious', it's *protected*. You
can't say bad stuff about it or criticize it."
During many of these centuries, the people saying this were IN CHARGE. Their
religion *ran* things. So if anyone *did* say anything critical of their
"religious" beliefs, they just killed their asses. Simple as that.
What we're seeing today in radical Islam and in the fundamentalist extremes of
religion such as Hindu Supremacy is a bunch of religious people wishing that
the world still worked that way. They'd really *like* to KILL anyone who
doesn't believe the way they think they should.
Currently on planet Earth, only one major religion is actually consistently
claiming to be PROUD of doing that -- killing anyone who doesn't believe the
way they think they should.
---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :
It's an odd kind of duty to publish cartoons that mock the founder of one of
the world's largest religions in the way that is plainly meant to be deeply
offensive to adherents of that faith. You say things cut both ways, and the
matter of respecting the faith of others does also.
---In [email protected], <s3raphita@...> wrote :
Re "That other people don't see the world the same way you do should be the
first thing they have to teach at these "faith" schools.":
Well, yes. But can you imagine a state, secular school teaching kids that some
people regard homosexuality as an abomination, or that women's place is in the
home, etc, etc? It cuts both ways.
John Stuart Mill in On Liberty argued that we should always have some private
(non-state) schools otherwise the state would simply use its monopoly to push
the ideology of the ruling Establishment. He was right then; he's right now.
The problem is we have two opposing fundamentalisms: religious versus new
atheist/PC thinking. I don't subscribe to either as I want people to question
all authority. But you don't learn to question authority in school! I suspect
you don't *learn* it at all - you either have an enquiring mind or you don't.
Anyway, salutations to those killed at Charlie Hebdo. They died in the line of
duty.
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