--- In [email protected], t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], anon_couscous_ff <no_reply@>
> wrote:
>
> > > Even Shankara himself stated that there
> > > cannot be a practise to 'achieve' enlightenment, only the Self can
> > > realize itself.
> >
> > Which is a statement for "teaching" but is not Truth. Its pretty funny
> > indeed. The Self wakes up and realizes ItSelf??? So the Self was
> > sleeping before??? haha.
>
> Okay, let me rephrase it: Only the Self can recognize Itself, that is
> shine upon itself, it does not need another lamp to shed light on it,
> it is the light.
Yes, we are saying the same thing. I was just enjoying the humor
sometimes contained in words and phrases.
>The question now could be: Who awakenes? The Self is
> already eternal and imutable, it
> doesn't need to awaken,
Yes, that was my point above. Again, I think we are saying similar things.
> and so is the
> witnessing consciousness.
I am unclear as to your distinction here. Two things. Ever Awake
Consciousness and witnessing consciousness.
>It is therefore the I-consciousness, the
> Jiva, the individualized soul which attains realization.
We may have semantic differences -- these words perhaps meaning
something somewhat different to each of us. The "I" is not substantial
-- a smoke and mirrors type mirage. When the "I" dissipates, then per
your "model"/"words" realization would disappear. Which is not the case.
Jivanmukti means to me individuality is liberated. In essence
extinguished. As we have discussed previously, and agreed I believe,
while a social self remains, identification with localized aspects --
body, mind, thoughts -- and thus ownership and possessiveness of
thoughts, identification with particular tastes and preferences, and
most profoundly/importantly IMO, indentification with the
decider/willer/ -- the intellect, this whole web of identification
that creates the illusion and myth of individual -- dissolves. Or at
least becomes very transparent. If this web of illusion is what is
realized, the realization dissolves. That means "realization" of CICI
is short-lived. Which is not the case.
>This is the
> conclusion of the ADVAITA BODHA DEEPIKA (lamp of non-dual knowledge -
> by Karapatra Swami who condensed it out of the work of Shankara).
>The Self and the
> witness are already always free.
Yes.
>It
> is the Jiva who possesses knowledge or is ignorant.
While this may be a short-hand way of expressing what is happening,
per above comments, it is incomplete. Even misleading.
If jiva is the collection of localized intellect, mind etc, which each
operate according to their natures, with out need of a "doer", and not
"ego" / sense of "individuality", then the statement makes sense ("It
is the Jiva who possesses knowledge or is ignorant.")
> > CICI (Consciousness is Conscious of Itself) is eternal. Not an off/on
> > phenomenon. What it is that "wakes up" locally to realize / know /
> > experience that CICI maybe a mystery of sorts. Why do some humans
> > realize IT, and a rock doesn't?
>
> The individual soul, the jivan.
>
>
> (For CICI in a rock just as much as in
> > a human.) It at least in part is triggered by understanding / insight
> > (though triggered by such, IT is not a mere understanding in itself)
> > -- available to humans via the intellect, something not available to a
> > rock. But the trigger and resulting living appreciation that CICI has
> > nothing to do with Consciousness waking up or realizing itself -from a
> > state of non-realization.)
Another way to get at the above point. (If jiva is the collection of
localized intellect, mind etc, ....)
> The Self is the light behind all faculties, but it is itself imutable.
> The Self doesn't need to get enlightened,
Yes, that is what we both have been saying.
>but the Jiva does so, but
> the light can only come from the Self itself, as it is the light
> within the Jiva, the intellect, the intuition and all faculties. It is
> itself unmoving, but causes everything to be moved.
Same quesions as above: for you is jiva "sense of individuality",
separate from the intellect, the intuition and all localized
faculties, or in your view is the jiva the collection of intellect,
the intuition and all localized faculties?
> > And this does open the door for an immediate trigger -- which could be
> > via satsang, or reading statements of truth, or simply deep analysis
> > and "figuring out" the insight/trigger. (And the stability of the
> > post-trigger state may vary.)
>
> Sure, there are many means. My point is not that you have to have
> Satsang, or that Shravana has to have the form of literal listening.
> And yet, this is an ancient format.
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