--- In [email protected], "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "jyouells2000" <jyouells@> > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "sparaig" <sparaig@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Vaj <vajranatha@> > wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:01 PM, sparaig wrote: > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > There's no mention of correlation between EEG changes > and > > > > > > > > enlightenment in any of the research that Vaj mentions, > > > > whereas > > > > > > > > that's one of the big areas of study for EEG and brain > > > > imaging > > > > > at > > > > > > > > MUM currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way I would show the same EEG pattern if I wanted to > > > > > > > duplicate "witnessing" on the EEG is to do ishta > meditation > > > > > > > with a mantra (what Tibetans call yidam practice). It > > > > > > > duplicates the same EEG signature as TMers doing ishta > > mantra. > > > > > > > Very easy to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > But you'd be meditating, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Lawson's talking about in activity. > > > > > > > > > > Both. The description of meditation in the samatha pdf file > > starts > > > > > off sounding like TM and then morphs into something else, or > so > > it > > > > > seems. Any technique that inspires that kind of first-hand > > > > > description definitely isn't TM, though without direct > > comparisons > > > > > of EEG and other physiological parameters, we can't be sure > if > > the > > > > > distinctions have any pragmatic effect on what is actually > > going on > > > > > in the brain. > > > > > > > > Right. My point was that Vaj is claiming he can emulate > > > > the TM EEG signature *during meditation*, but even if he > > > > can, that wouldn't necessarily mean he could also > > > > emulate it *during activity*. > > > > > > > > While "witnessing" certainly can occur during TM, the > > > > bread-and-butter aspect is when it occurs in activity. > > > > > > > > > Also, Ken Wilber's cute little EEG demo shows nothing in and > of > > > > > itself. Vaj appears to be basing his claims on Wilber's demo > or > > > > > something that he has done himself with similar apparatus. > > > > > > > > Well, it shows he has some control over whatever it is > > > > the machine is measuring, which is moderately impressive > > > > in and of itself. But it doesn't get us anywhere unless > > > > we have a better idea of what it's measuring. > > > > > > Judy, > > > Wilber talks extensively about his experience of witnessing. > From > > > his writings it's pretty clear he has the experience. > > > > I don't believe I suggested that Wilber didn't have > > the experience of witnessing, so I'm not sure of the > > relevance of this to what I said. > > > > He may or may not. *I* question whether or not two different EEG > patterns that lead to the same description are really the same state, > however. >
Sure but the same can be said about correlating any physical measurements of any subjective states. There's a certain 'leap of faith' about the correlation even between folks doing the same technique. JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
