First, welcome back Turq. I missed your sense of humor and interest in discussing topics in detail. You have been posting some thoughtful stuff. There are a few posters here who stretch my thinking beyond my own current boundaries and that is what I am here for. Otherwise I would just hang out with Secular Humanists rather than be challenged. I am always seeking ways to discuss beliefs that I do not share, surrounded by enough humor to make it enjoyable. I have heard that the single best predictor of a therapist's success is the level of rapport established. That certainly is true for me when it comes to discussions of beliefs. There are a number of poster heres who pull it off very well, and when it works it is really great. So, having poured us a bit of Campari, I begin.
Your discussion of TM beliefs being clung to, contrasted with the experience of going beyond boundaries in meditation made me think. I have come to the conclusion that the belief system is more critical to the TM experience than MMY's claim of the experience of the transcendent and the higher states being self-evident, imply. This is also a part of his own teaching of course, but not emphasized in this way. I think it goes beyond the usual knowledge supporting experience teaching of TM. My evidence for this is that we know that most people who started TM dropped it, by a huge margin. I conducted a campaign in the DC center to find out what had happened to the 10,000 people who were initiated in the center and it came out to be a tiny percent continued to meditate. The ones who continued mostly had a continuing interaction with the "knowledge" and the belief structure as well as the social system, the supportive "group". The more time they spent building the beliefs, the more likely they were to continue. Some people seem to drop out after deep involvement because they couldn't take the movement's strong arm tactics and general bullshittery. Many of the people who had a deep commitment and left after years took on new beliefs that brought them beyond the party line and that lead them out of the ability to stay within the movement's rules and guidelines. If they continued with a belief system that supported the experience of "higher states", then they might start other spiritual practices which had a form of meditation or they combined the teachings. If they dropped that model completely, as in my case, they might not continue on any traditional spiritual path at all. Although some in the movement had tried to paint me as a disgruntled member when I left, to neutralize the damage, nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing we have discussed in this group about the deceptions or shitty treatment by the movement phased me when I was in it, because the experience (combined with the belief system) was worth it all. But once I had decided that the belief system was fundamentally flawed, my value of the experience completely changed. I could still have an experience of unboundedness, but it meant nothing. The experience's bliss and compelling nature is not inherent in the experience. It is tied to it value from the belief. I actually never missed a program in 15 years, but when it switched off I never desired it again. It wasn't just because I was compulsive with TM, I craved the state twice a day. But now the desire is totally gone. Because I had such an intense exposure I can drift into the state naturally if I close my eyes, but it doesn't have any charm for me. It seems to take away more than it gives, and I no longer view that state as an experience of my Self. For me it takes away what I value of myself. But when I go out in the middle of a lake in my kayak I often close my eyes and listen to nature and can float in thoughts that seem to take me beyond my ordinary thought patterns. The "contemplation" that I used to put down as "merely thinking level activity", can have a great value for my regaining perspective, and seems to be a good state to plan my future. It is an active state of mind, but the organization of what senses I am paying attention to seem re-arranged. So I am opened to some type of meditation being valuable for me in short doses. But not the state that TM brings, and without all the belief system structure that I am experiencing the deeper truth of life. I think some altered states are another useful state of mind in short doses, but not all altered states. I can see how many people who left TM were attracted to Buddhist practices although I don't know too much about them. If a person is really impulsive then TM may give enough dissociation to restore more choice for a person and I am opened to that value from TM for some people. But in my experience, that is the person who is the least likely to continue with TM. People like myself who might generously be called "creative types", are already pretty dissociated, so a lot of TM sends me beyond the (now demoted) planet Pluto. For people like me activity like exercise is the balance I need and seek because it balances my inward contemplative tendencies. I would like to discuss MMY in another post since this has gotten so long. Thanks for reading if you got this far. This is my life, not an anti-TM rant. I fully understand that my perspective may have nothing to do with the people who love TM and find its continued value in their lives. There was a time when I took my perspective on these matters as universals. "But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now". Bob D. --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I wasn't there, of course, but just from your quote > > > > > I wouldn't be sure he was referring to attuning > > > > > yourselves to his thinking in any case, so much as > > > > > that eventually you would all be in the same state > > > > > of consciousness he was. > > > > > > > > In my honest and long-considered opinion, > > > > all of Maharishi's students have *always* > > > > been in the same state of consciousness > > > > as he is -- normal old waking state. The > > > > problems arise when one or more of the > > > > students start to achieve what the teacher > > > > never has. > > > > > > <snore> > > > > P.S.: Notice, once again, that Barry has conflated > > "What MMY sez..." (or in this case, "What MMY > > may have meant...") with "What MMY sez is true." > > > > It's really a very obvious distinction, but Barry > > simply cannot seem to make it. > > > > Could that be because the former gives him no > > opportunity to recycle his old MMY-is-a-fraud- > > and-you-stupid-TBs-believe-him mantras? > > Ah. As Maharishi would say, "A perfect opportunity > for the answer we have already prepared." :-) > > ************************************************************ > > Isn't it fascinating how many of the same people > who believe strongly in TM and its ability to > allow them to transcend their thoughts and > concepts and ideas during meditation cling so > desperately to those same thoughts and concepts > and ideas here on FFL, often to the point of > feeling that they have to "defend" them from > "attack?" > > I find it the most fascinating trend in spiritual > practice, period, much less in the TM movement. > On the one hand, one is introduced to a practice > that -- by definition -- cannot work unless one > drops all of one's thoughts and concepts and ideas > and leaves them behind. On that same hand, the > practitioners understand deeply that these thoughts > and concepts and ideas are not only *not them*, > not *who they are*. You achieve the goal of > experiencing your Self by letting them go. > > And then, on the other hand, these same people who > twice a day are reminded that their thoughts and > concepts and ideas are *not them* are indoctrinated > -- via literally hours and days and months and years > of lectures and talks and books and videos -- into > a new set of thoughts and concepts and ideas that > they are told are not only true, but "the highest > knowledge" available on the planet. They are told > how incredibly lucky they are to *be* indoctrinated > into these thoughts and concepts and ideas, and that > the fact that they know them and believe them makes > them *special*, more evolved than and better than > the "unevolved" people around them. They are taught > to *defend* these thoughts and concepts and ideas > as some kind of cosmic truth. And if they deviate > from the thoughts and concepts and ideas in any way > they are purged from the group and sent away in > disgrace. > > Just *think* about the cognitive dissonance that > this creates in these seekers. Just *look* at it > every day on this forum. The *same* people who are > reminded at least twice a day as they meditatie > that they are *NOT* their thoughts, *NOT* their > concepts, and *NOT* their ideas and that it's > the easiest thing in the world to just let go of > these things -- what do they do? They snarl and > fight like cornered animals whenever one of these > thoughts or concepts or ideas is challenged. > > They're convinced that they know the truth about > enlightenment, even though the closest most of them > have ever come to it is hearing it described in > someone else's thoughts and concepts and ideas. > They're convinced that their view of Maharishi > is true and incontestable, even though many of > these same people have never even sat in the > same room with him. They're convinced that *their* > interpretation of the things he says is "right," > and that anyone who interprets them differently > is, well, "wrong." They're convinced about almost > *everything*. The thing that makes this forum so > interesting is that *so* many people here are *so* > convinced that the same thoughts and concepts and > ideas they let go of so easily in meditation are > *so* right and *so* precious that outside of > meditation they have to fight for them and > defend them to the death. > > It's a little scary sometimes. > > Some of the good people here, including myself, > have been fortunate enough to be involved with > spiritual traditions that allow you to let go > of your thoughts and concepts and ideas as often > outside of meditation as you do during meditation. > IMO these people stand out. Their ideas "flow" in > a way that the ideas of the others do not, > probably because they're not attached to them. > They *trust* themselves enough to give expression > to their thoughts and concepts and ideas, in the > moment, and then *let go* of those same thoughts > and concepts and ideas in the next moment. They > aren't all anal retentive about them; they > *understand* that these thoughts and concepts and > ideas are Just Passing Through, and are not "them." > And as a result, in my humble opinion, there is > more "them" there behind the posts than there is > in the ones who *are* anal retentive about their > thoughts and concepts and ideas, squeezing their > mental butt cheeks together desperately, with > all the force they can muster, trying to hold > onto them just one minute longer. > > My advice to the anal retentive types here is to > let your turds plop. The sound of the thoughts and > concepts and ideas you once thought were "you" > hitting the toilet water is remarkably liberating. > The sound of flushing them away forever is even > more so. *Just* as in meditation, you can't really > experience your Self completely *until* you flush > them all away. Hanging onto them doesn't make you > smart; it just makes you full of shit. > > ************************************************************ > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
