--- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > I am just claiming that it helped me understand my experiences Judy. > > No, you've been claiming a *lot* more than > that, Curtis. > > For example (just from FFL, not alt.m.t): > > "It seems obvious to me that many people here have done this on their > own given the freedom of thought represented here. If you have a > discussion with hard-line TMers you don't get the same openness. That > closed mindedness is a result of a process, studied and described in > detail by Singer and Lifton."
Me: Right, most people on FFL have a broader mindset then the hard-line TM people who would never post on such a free forum. I think the hard-line mindset is described well by Lifton and Singer. Although many posters here may disagree with me on the reasons why full time TMers can be such butt-heads, I suspect there is a pretty strong consensus that they often are. > > [LB Shriver says he was told his presence > in the dome would be "disruptive"; someone > else asked, Disruptive of what?] > "What is disrupted is Milieu Control. I'm sure everyone here is hip to > that Lifton concept." Me: Milieu Control is the control of information. People who are not allowed in the dome because they don't buy the party line are disruptive to MUM's information control. I stand by that assessment. > Me: > "Lifton and Singer established 8 principles from their work with > Korean war vets. I don't know Lifton but did know the late Margret > Singer. She was fascinated by how some modern groups had refined the > techniques to become less obvious and more subtle. I think this is a > case of knowledge being power. Knowing the techniques makes it more > difficult to apply them." Me: I believe that if people understand how they can be manipulated by a group they are better equipped to avoid it. It is great that so many people with a movement background have looked at Lifton's perspective,whether they concluded that it fit their own experiences or not. > > And most recently: > > "I do know that Lifton and Singer both believed that his eight mind > control principles did apply to full time members in the TM group." Me: This a fact Judy. They did believe this. It was a correction of your erroneous claim below: Judy from a previous post: "Plus which, it trivializes Robert J. Lifton's important work about *real* thought control by pretending it's applicable to the TMO." Me: This is false. Lifton did believe that his principles of thought reform were present in TM facilities. No one is "pretending" that they are applicable and "trivializing" his work. Studying people in groups like TM was part of his work. > > > Why would I want to argue with you about my own experiences in the > > movement 20 years ago and how I view them? > > I don't know, Curtis, but you brought up our > past discussions, not me. And as the quotes > above show, you don't just refer to Lifton's > work as useful to understand your own experiences, > you cite him as an authority on what goes on in > the TMO. Me: I believe that Lifton and Singer offer a valuable insight into what happens to people who are full time in the movement. It helped me understand my experience better. They basically created the study of thought reform and their opinion was that fulltime TM people are subjected to it. I am not interested in your speculations concerning experiences you have not had in the movement or your opinion of his work. I rely on my own discussions with Margret Singer concerning what Lifton believed about the TM organization, and my own experiences in it. > > They are obviously > > radically different from your own. No need to call me dishonest > > because I don't want to fight about it. > > If you don't want to discuss your claims that > Lifton's criteria apply to the TMO, then STOP > MAKING THE CLAIMS. Me: I chose to hear your rude caps in the hysterical voice of Yosemite Sam. Yeah, that works for me. I won't stop expressing my opinions, no need to shout. > > > I don't hold you or you challenges as authoritative on my > experiences > > or Lifton's material. I don't think that this kind of complex > > material, which has had a very important value to me personally, is > > best discussed in a combative context? Do you? Do you want to win > > something or prove me wrong is some way? > > Again, *you* barged in with your citation of > Lifton's belief that his principles applied to > the TMO. I hadn't been talking to you, hadn't > referred to you. So don't you accuse *me* of > wanting to be combative. Me: So now commenting on someone else's post to correct an erroneous statement is considered barging in? And this is automatically considered combative because you had not been talking to me? Wow, that is going to be an interesting standard to apply to your writing here Judy. I look forward to seeing you conform to your own standard to avoid hypocrisy. It is not a standard that I will conform to myself however because it is absurd. From your previous post :"If you're now ready to do so, finally, great, let me know, and we can go at it. But don't give me crap about how we "talked this to death." Me: Do you really need me to explain why your phrases are viewed as combative? "Going at it" sounds like a far cry from a respectful discussion. I'll pass thanks. You aren't tying to understand me. You and I have nothing in common here. You have never lived in a sidhaland and taken an oath to Guru Dev. You have no idea what goes on in these facilities. You are trying to argue with me about experiences you have not had and ones that I really don't care about at this point. I didn't leave TM because I thought they were using coercive techniques on me. I left because I concluded that MMY was wrong in his claims. > > Again, if you don't want to discuss the principles, > stop citing them as authoritative. Me: Lifton and Singer were authoritative in their own fields and their understanding of what happens in full time TM members from their clinical practice to my satisfaction. Can I put you down for "not so much"? OK Who cares? I believe you are attempting to play to an imaginary crowd of perspective TM lurkers who you fear will be influenced by me stating that Lifton considered TM full time people to be subjected to thought reform practices. I think this is why you are invested in attempting to stop me from expressing this fact and want to "go at it" with me about it. If you want to present your own ideas about Lifton's theories and why he was wrong to apply them to the experiences of full time members, go for it. For all the lurkers who are deciding if you should meditate based on the words of a guy who hadn't done it in 18 years...you might want to tune up your information gathering strategy. Judy we are OK at discussing things where there is some mutual respect with the topic. I don't think we can get there with this one. --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > I am just claiming that it helped me understand my experiences Judy. > > No, you've been claiming a *lot* more than > that, Curtis. > > For example (just from FFL, not alt.m.t): > > "It seems obvious to me that many people here have done this on their > own given the freedom of thought represented here. If you have a > discussion with hard-line TMers you don't get the same openness. That > closed mindedness is a result of a process, studied and described in > detail by Singer and Lifton." > > [LB Shriver says he was told his presence > in the dome would be "disruptive"; someone > else asked, Disruptive of what?] > "What is disrupted is Milieu Control. I'm sure everyone here is hip to > that Lifton concept." > > "Lifton and Singer established 8 principles from their work with > Korean war vets. I don't know Lifton but did know the late Margret > Singer. She was fascinated by how some modern groups had refined the > techniques to become less obvious and more subtle. I think this is a > case of knowledge being power. Knowing the techniques makes it more > difficult to apply them." > > And most recently: > > "I do know that Lifton and Singer both believed that his eight mind > control principles did apply to full time members in the TM group." > > > Why would I want to argue with you about my own experiences in the > > movement 20 years ago and how I view them? > > I don't know, Curtis, but you brought up our > past discussions, not me. And as the quotes > above show, you don't just refer to Lifton's > work as useful to understand your own experiences, > you cite him as an authority on what goes on in > the TMO. > > They are obviously > > radically different from your own. No need to call me dishonest > > because I don't want to fight about it. > > If you don't want to discuss your claims that > Lifton's criteria apply to the TMO, then STOP > MAKING THE CLAIMS. > > > I don't hold you or you challenges as authoritative on my > experiences > > or Lifton's material. I don't think that this kind of complex > > material, which has had a very important value to me personally, is > > best discussed in a combative context? Do you? Do you want to win > > something or prove me wrong is some way? > > Again, *you* barged in with your citation of > Lifton's belief that his principles applied to > the TMO. I hadn't been talking to you, hadn't > referred to you. So don't you accuse *me* of > wanting to be combative. > > Again, if you don't want to discuss the principles, > stop citing them as authoritative. >
