<sigh> Sorry for the delay, folks. Life's been a little busy, not even counting the auto accident (minor, fortunately) I was just in on Tuesday night and all the insurance business it's spawned over the past couple days.
Anyway, since I'm doing this offline in order to squeeze in a few lines here and there among other tasks, I'm consolidating everyone's messages for one mass reply. Dennis, Richard, your messages appeared after I consolidated; I'll be a little while replying to you two. Sorry. "Wanderer D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Very nice. Wish this had come out when I was starting! :p But it is > something I will link to in > sites I know fan-writers tend to visit if you don't mind. Thank you, but please, don't link to it yet, at least not without fair warning -- it's nowhere near ready for prime-time. > Also, I'll try to think of good and bad advice I have encountered through > the years, and some > reference books to bolster up your guide if they prove to be useful. That would be great, thank you! "Glazius Falconar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote > There's something you should be aware of. > Often times, writing fanfic isn't actually a creative expression. It's > more of an exercise in group membership. > Nobody expects a secret handshake to win a Tony, or a club anthem to win > a Grammy. Why expect fanfic written to declare an affiliation to be > worth reading for anyone but the group? Mm. That's an interesting point. I never thought of that. I guess I'm just too much the solitary writer working for a large audience. But yeah, I can see that completely. > I mean, do you know how many people writing Harry Potter fanfic have > convinced themselves that J.K. Rowling's books are objectively wrong? <snort> I remember reading about the letters she's gotten telling her she's screwing up the *obvious* couples with the pairings she was *forcing*. So I guess the answer to that is, a scarily-large number. <grin> I swear, some people do seem to forget that the original material isn't just another fanfic... "Steffan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bob, it's a greatly appreciated effort you have made, and I for one > thank you for it. Thanks, Steffan. "Karsten Sethre" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Looks good so far. Also more comprehensive than I expected - while > writing this reply, several times I'd start reading a section and think > "I'd should tell him to mention such-and-such aspect of that" only to > find you actually did so in the next paragraph. Which is pretty much how some of it got written -- I'd think of something just like that and quickly stash a reminder to cover it later in the file. > Sadly, those that need to read it most, if they see it at all, will > likely take one glance, think "TL;DR" and continue writing wince-worthy > stories. Then again, I work tech support, so I'm a bit cynical regarding > people's average intelligence. I really don't think the people who need it the most -- like Kaydee and the long-gone and unlamented Oscar -- would read and apply it even if I somehow condensed it down to 100 words and ten bullet-points. My real intended audience is that person who's just started to write, who while he really doesn't quite get it yet is still open to advice and help, the kind of writer who could well learn or figure out most of this on his own over several years. I just wanted to save him some of the worst of those years. > It may also be worth HTML-izing this. It doesn't need to be broken up > into multiple pages, but it would be nice if things like "This means > spelling and grammar (more about both later)..." were more like "This > means <a href="#spelling">spelling</a> and <a > href="#grammar">grammar</a>..." to link to the appropriate sections. Probably a good idea, but one that'll wait until I actually finish the document, more than likely. While I can and do type directly into HTML (I still hand-build pages for my website, not even using CSS; how sad is that? <grin>), it's a bit easier for me to read while composing if it's plain text. > Speaking of which - bad spelling and grammar will make me stop reading a > fic faster than almost anything else. Incorrect use of homophones > (to/too/two, your/you're, etc.) grate on my nerves severely. Wikipedia > has a couple good pages that may be worth linking to: Thanks! I'll stash those URLS in the file for future reference. > One thing that could be said is the more obscure a series or character > is, the less you should assume. And just because the writer doesn't > think something is obscure doesn't mean it's not. Ooh, good point. Although I'd probably cast it along the lines of "don't assume your reader knows *anything*", because it's a good rule in general. I mean, think about actual series of books; they generally reiterate some if not most of the establishing material in every volume, in one way or another. >> Plagiarism > Definitely shouldn't be removed, but should be reordered. Seems odd to > have it stuck in the middle of the "how to use proper English" sections. I've been meaning to move it. That was where I was when I thought to include it, so I just kept typing. <grin> >> x. Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe > The bottom of http://www.idir.net/~ipsifend/grammar.html has a table > (though, not exactly being a scholar on archaic English, I can't > guarantee its accuracy): Thanks for the URL and the information! Looks right to me -- the second person singular sounds a lot more correct than my fragmentary memories. >> xx. Misused Words >> xx. GRAMMATICAL ODDITIES > Aside from the CAPS LOCK on the second, these should probably be up with > the other similar sections - maybe swap the locations of these two with > the "Plagiarism" bit? Yeah, I know I'm inconsistent on the headings. It'll be fixed eventually. Likewise, sections will be reordered. I'm thinking of adding a "Knowing Your Tools" section where the grammar and vocabulary advice will go, while leaving "Stupid Writer Tricks" for Plagiarism and other topics about stuff a good writer should not do. > This should probably be reworded - as is, it could easily be read as > "dojo = koi pond and dirt". I had to read over it twice for my mind to > parse it right, even though I already knew the proper use of "dojo". Mm. Good point. I'll do that right now. >> xx. FORMATTING > If you feel you must use a format fancier than plain text, try to limit > font styles to plain, bold and italic, <snip> Oh, very good points. Do you mind if I transplant that passage whole to the document? > Indeed. The Star Trek character is named "Chekov", not "Chekhov". See: > http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.ChekovsGun ^_- I take it that wink emoticon suggests you already know I not only frequent that wiki, but that I am (or was) one of the more prolific contributors there? And are you a contributor there yourself, one that I might recognize? >> Make your first scene something that happens, chronologically, >> half-way through the plot > (There should be a period at the end of that paragraph.) Actually, that's an incomplete sentence, abandoned in mid-stream- of-thought. > This device can be good - many fics I enjoy use it - but it should be > noted that if the characters are acting significantly different than > canon, don't take too long to jump back to the beginning to start > explaining why they've changed. Depending on how different they've > become, "too long" could easily be "more than two or three paragraphs". Very good point. > ... I could probably come up with more feedback on this, but I'm falling > asleep and have to get up for work in four hours, so I'll stop now. You do that. <grin> Thank you for what you *have* managed to write so far -- it's all been quite good and useful. "Matthew Johnston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote > This rings so very true. Thanks. > I also didn't like the tone of the document very much; this isn't a > guide so much as a long complaint file with information attached. Well, yeah. I very much intended to be snarky when I started writing this, because I was pretty sick of seeing the same five grammatical errors and the same ten spelling mistakes in fic after fic after freaking fic. I was hoping, though, that it would come across as *funny* snark that would keep people reading. > Useful info, yes, but it's wrapped in a sour lemon of a document that > serves to deliver a message of, "If you do this, you suck," rather > than an educational or helpful message like, "These tips will improve > your writing dramatically." I certainly can lighten the tone. But I'm trying to write in a way that addresses a person who says, "I do X. Why not?" and then goes on to show why X is a bad idea. > I suggest reformatting the document thusly: > 1. Three Easy Things That Will Make You Instantly Better Which three things did you have in mind? Or is this something for me to decide? > 2. Three More Things You Can Practice To Get Even Better Ditto. > You're also > encouraging them to write more, or at least edit what they have. I'd > start by encouraging them to try the tips on their next story, and to > start that story "right now." Whatever I choose to do with the document in the long run, this is definitely something that I should include. Hm. Maybe I should turn it into some kind of "learn by doing" course... > If the document is going to be effective for writers, and not just > comfort frustrated readers, it has to be an invitation. Sell them on > the easy improvements, then get them to practice on the more complex > stuff. Then they can dig deep into the exhaustive knowledge base > you've developed. That's a compellingly good suggestion. I'm sorely tempted to start right away on a complete reconstruction of the file, but that would mean dropping DW5 chapter 6 from my priorities list, which would get me quickly keelhauled by a good couple hundred folks. <grin> I don't want to give up the snark, though, whatever I do. That's *my* comfort. Plus, I honestly think it'll help retention when it comes to whatever section I build out of the (ever-growing) list of mis-chosen words. Dot Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 1) It's already a little on the wordy side. I don't think you need as > much elaboration on some of your points. <snip> > 2) It needs better organization. Some of the subsections could be moved, > and the entire thing needs to have some kind of logical progression > between the major secions. Hm. Karsten suggested "HTML-izing" the guide. If I were to turn it into a wiki-like tree of interlinked documents -- or better yet, actually put it in a wiki -- what then? The organziation and navigation would ameliorate some of the "TL;DR" problem, no single topic would look too huge (probably) > 3) The tone is a tad condescending. Yeah, some of those bad writing > mistakes grate on my nerves, too (and heck, I've committed a few of those > "sins" myself), but there's no need to put off your potential audience. Condescending I didn't really intended. Snark, yes, but not condescension. Admittedly there can be a very fine line between the two. I'll admit to feeling irritation and anger while writing huge chunks of this; I didn't think it had slopped over quite that far into the writing itself. I'll have to correct that. Not to sound disingenuous or anything, but are there any passages that stick out in your mind as being particularly condescending? Just in case I have trouble seeing it in my writing? > Or, if you are writing with a somewhat snarky attitude (maybe retitling > the guide to something like "So You Want to Write Fanfiction", making it > clear that you are being kind of an asshole), spice up the humor a bit, > too, so that it's entertaining as well. Which is, admittedly, kind of how I wanted the guide to come out in the first place. Okay, big "FAIL" on that goal... > I guess I'm getting cynical, but reading this through I don't know if the > people you're trying to reach are going to take your advice. Those who > are writing fanfiction to improve themselves will already come across > these guildlines of their own volition, whereas those who are doing it > just to fanwank are going to keep making the same mistake. As I said above, I'm hoping to catch the beginner who has a real interest in improving. Just because the worst cases are likely to stay that way doesn't mean I shouldn't try. -- Bob =========================================================================== Bob Schroeck http://www.eclipse.net/~rms [EMAIL PROTECTED] =========================================================================== Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. =========================================================================== --- .-------Anime/Manga Fanfiction Mailing List--------. | Administrators - [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Unsubscribing - [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Put 'unsubscribe' in the subject | `------------ FAQ URL coming soon.... -------------'
