On 23 Oct 2006 at 15:26, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

[just a request: can you *please* put a blank line after the quote 
and before your reply? When you don't, my email client can't properly 
tell where the quotes end and the new text begins, and I end up 
having to completely rewrap everything; it's also harder to read!]

> David W. Fenton wrote:
> > Did you read the rest of my post? 
>
> Yes, I read the remainder of your post, but I was not disagreeing with
> your conclusion, so much as disagreeing with the information stream
> from which you came to write the phrase "because they were created for
> computer use". My original point was that the statement 
> > The computer "innovation" was having nothing *but* fixed-width 
> > numbers, whereas older fonts had both for use in different
> > contexts. 

> ignored older 
> devices where the innovation you assert was due to the computer, were
> actually made. For example, the typewriter, like the computer, had the
> "innovation" of a limited subset of about 88 (plus or minus a few)
> characters. 

Well, it's not relevant with typewriters until the 1970s, because 
before that point all typewriters were fixed-pitch, so there was not 
any possibility of proportionally-spaced numbers.

> Also, my answer was informed by my something I observed
> when consulting a reprint of an old edition (I think 1896) of the ATF
> typeface catalog by Garland Press, and by a difference in word usage.
> Where we use the word font somewhat loosely today to mean a collection
> of characters designed to have a cohesive use, this is not the
> standard printer's term used for that; in most instances what we today
> call a "font", a printer would have called a "typeface", and the
> printer would have used the word "font" to refer to a quantity of type
> of a particular typeface.

Yes, but does that change the meaning of the discussion? Our fonts 
are scalable, but for a printer, they had to have the entire 
character set reproduced in all the point sizes they wanted to use. I 
don't see how that fact makes any difference in the current 
discussion.

> But after reviewing materials I own, including the books _Type / The
> Designer's Type Book (Revised edition)_ by Ben Rosen and _The
> Designer's Guide to Text Type"_, both published by Von Nostrand, I
> find that in fact, the type specimen books suggest that numbers were
> (with a single exception in each) constant width in each set I
> examined. The numerals 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 0 were all the same
> width, (based upon a uniform distance from vertical centerline of one
> character to the next). Only the "1" appears to have a different
> centerline than the others. 

That means they didn't have a fixed width.

> > Computer fonts with both [constant and variable width numeral glyphs] 
> > are becoming more common, but for 15 years or so, we lacked them
> > in most of the common fonts. *That* is vastly different from
> > traditional typography and was the result of a decision probably
> > based on the original 256-character limit to a font set. 
>
> The original limit of characters seems to have been fewer
> about ninety; the number of keys on an old standard typewriter
> keyboard. 

Typewriters offered no variation in typeface until the 1950s or so, 
so I just don't see how this makes a difference.

The point of comparison is not typewritten text, anyway, but TYPESET 
text.

> From an examination of the specimens in the above volumes,
> the standard font of a typeface seems to have contained upper and
> lower case letters; numerals; and punctuation: . , : ; ! ? ‘ ’ “ ” $
> and & (plus a few more), and ligatures for ff, fi, fl, ft, and
> sometimes ffl. 

Because they didn't have to accommodate multiple languages, since 
most printers would have been printing in only one language.

> Most of these were used in the 88 key typewriter
> keyboard, and the set from the typewriter keyboard, plus a couple of
> non printing control characters (carriage return, line-feed,. tab,
> bell, &c) were adapted for the teletype, and subsequently adapted by
> ASCII. So while the 256 character set limit was a function of the
> design of early consumer computers in the late 1970's, it was a
> substantial increase in the set of available characters, and not a
> "limitation" at all.

I disagree. With only 90 slots you had ligatures in one of the 
typefaces you describe. That's because it was a monolingual typeface 
so there was plenty of room to fit in extra characters. Computer 
fonts could have done the same things if they'd limited themselves to 
a single language.

> So how can I bring this all back to a Finale connection? Well, music
> types were among the largest fonts of characters available from type
> vendors. Where a standard typeface contained 100 characters or fewer
> in the font, spread across the "upper" and "lower" cases, a font of
> music types contained more than three hundred types, spread across the
> "upper", "lower", and "side" cases.

And we're still struggling with the 256-character limit in Finale 
because music fonts are still limited to that. 

I wonder how long it will be before we transition over to full 
Unicode font sets in everything?

-- 
David W. Fenton                    http://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates       http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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