O.T. I wonder if the original "debts" didn't come from the Kol Nidre text (in Aramaic) that opens the Yom Kippur observance, although the translation is "oaths" and "vows," and it refers not to ones made to one's fellow, but to God. Both Jewish and Christianoi texts were parallel, if not identical, up until 200 C.E.
And you're right - a debt and a trespass are wholly different things. The idea of a debt to God . . . Joyful Season! SCL ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on behalf of [email protected] [[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Finale Digest, Vol 89, Issue 23 Send Finale mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Finale digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Completely O.T. (John Howell) 2. Re: Completely O.T. (David W. Fenton) 3. Re: Completely O.T. (Phil Daley) 4. Re: Completely O.T. (Andrew Moschou) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:51:52 -0500 From: John Howell <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Finale] Completely O.T. To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <p06240804c93561819...@[10.0.1.3]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 7:27 AM -0800 12/20/10, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: >I have an ex student F.B. friend, who wants to know if the last line >of this Old English version means "deliver us from evil," or from >"Yule." Any experts? > >Dean What's "F.B."? Fullback? But I would certainly trust the majority of modern English translations, in which it is certainly "deliver us from evil." "Y" often subsituted for "i" or "e," and "u" and "v" were still considered the same letter as were "i" and "j." Not bad for a text that had to make its way from Aramaic through Latin (and possibly Greek as well) into the variety of modern and not-so-modern languages. Although I'm a bit surprised that the church would have allowed a vernacular translation in the 13th century (which I believe might be Middle English rather than Old, which is basically German), since the church reserved to itself the interpretation of scripture and actively discouraged translations. That was the century of Eleanore of Aquitane and King Henry II (two of whose sons became Kings and several of whose daughters became Queens), and while the politics were wide open, the hold of the church was definitely NOT! It's also interesting to note that this version uses debts ("dettys") rather than the opposing translation "trespasses." I've always wondered where THAT difference in translations came from, since it's a rather different meaning. And it's also missing the modern ending, which makes me wonder when THAT was added. Linguistics and semantics are fascinating subjects, which I have studied much too little. > > This is a 13th century version. Oure Fader that art in heuene, >halewed be thi name. Thi kyngdom come to us. Thi wylle be don, as in >heuene, & in erthe. Oure eche dayes breed geue us to day. & forgeue >us oure dettys, as we forgeue oure dettourys. And ne lede us not in >temptacyon, but delyuere us of yuel. Amen. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[email protected]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:23:57 -0500 From: "David W. Fenton" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Finale] Completely O.T. To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 20 Dec 2010 at 14:51, John Howell wrote: > it's also missing the modern ending, > which makes me wonder when THAT was added. You mean the lesser doxology, i.e., "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever." There are two versions in the scriptures, and only one of them includes the doxology. And the Catholic church still uses the version WITHOUT the doxology to this day. I knew all of that already (having been a heavy-duty church musician for many years before grad school), but the Wikipedia article is quite informative on that and a number of other subjects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer It includes a discussion of debts/trespasses, too. (this is one of those cases where from my point of view, Wikipedia is delightfully good, and better than one would expect) -- David W. Fenton http://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:42:28 -0500 From: Phil Daley <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Finale] Completely O.T. To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12/20/2010 02:51 PM, John Howell wrote: >At 7:27 AM -0800 12/20/10, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: >>I have an ex student F.B. friend, who wants to know if the last line >>of this Old English version means "deliver us from evil," or from >>"Yule." Any experts? >> >>Dean > >What's "F.B."? Fullback? Wow! You are behind the times!! They have even made a movie about FaceBook. >It's also interesting to note that this version uses debts ("dettys") >rather than the opposing translation "trespasses." I've always >wondered where THAT difference in translations came from, since it's >a rather different meaning. Only liberal churches use that versions, like Unitarians and UCC. > And it's also missing the modern ending, >which makes me wonder when THAT was added. Linguistics and semantics >are fascinating subjects, which I have studied much too little. Yes, the Catholic church still uses the short version. Protestants use the newer long version. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:09:26 +1030 From: Andrew Moschou <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Finale] Completely O.T. To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On 21 December 2010 06:21, John Howell <[email protected]> wrote: > But I would certainly trust the majority of modern English translations, in > which it is certainly "deliver us from evil." "Y" often subsituted for "i" > or "e," and "u" and "v" were still considered the same letter as were "i" > and "j." Not bad for a text that had to make its way from Aramaic through > Latin (and possibly Greek as well) into the variety of modern and > not-so-modern languages. > It certainly made its way through Greek before Latin. > Although I'm a bit surprised that the church would have allowed a > vernacular translation in the 13th century (which I believe might be Middle > English rather than Old, which is basically German), since the church > reserved to itself the interpretation of scripture and actively discouraged > translations. > English, before the Normal invasion, was one of the most literary and scholarly languages in Europe. John Wyclif's translation after that time helped to restore that status and it was definitely not allowed by the Church. I thoroughly recommend the documentary at http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/adventure-of-english/ (which can be viewed online) for a history of the English language. Andrew ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [email protected] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale End of Finale Digest, Vol 89, Issue 23 ************************************** _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [email protected] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
