Thanks for this Bob U - very helpful - I will read your paper with great interest - it was nice to learn that not only am I observant but also obversant or perhaps you are the obversant one - all kidding aside I believe your insight is extremely useful and I am passing it on to Deacon's group Terry and the Pirates. - Bob L
On 2014-10-20, at 4:27 PM, Robert E. Ulanowicz wrote: > Dear Bob, > > What you are saying is the obverse of the third law of thermodynamics. The > third law says that entropy (viz., disorder) can only be measured with > respect to some reference condition. Since information is the complement > of entropy in Bayesian informatics, then the obverse becomes, "Information > can only be measured with respect to some reference state". (It may be the > same one used for pin down entropy.) Changing the reference state changes > the values for both information and entropy. > > I tried elaborating those relationships in my FIS paper > <http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/FISPAP.pdf>. > > The best, > Bob U. > >> Dear all - my take on this post is that the question of whether physical >> processes are information is like the question: Is there a sound if a tree >> falls in the forest and no one is there to listen? This is like the Zen >> koan: "what is the sound of one hand clapping" If no one is in the forest >> are the trees information? Well for sure they are trees but as to whether >> or not they are information that is strictly dependent on the point of >> view of the respondent. For me they are just trees and here is why I think >> so. For me information is about a process. The noun information relates to >> the verb inform. If no one is being informed there is no information. In >> the same way that if no one or thing is there being loved (verb) their is >> no love (noun). If no one is engaged in the activity of loving (a verb) >> there is no love (a noun). If there is no one being informed (a verb) then >> there is no information (a noun). Now one can talk about an object or a >> phenomenon having the possibility of informing someone which to my mind is >> potential information which is what I would call the physical processes >> that take place in our universe. A book written in Urdu is potential >> information because an Urdu reader can be informed by it. For me as a >> non-Urdu speaker there is very little information other than someone went >> to the trouble of writing out a text with Urdu letters and hence there is >> probably information there for an Urdu speaker reasoning why would any one >> make the effort to create such an object unless that person wanted to >> inform Urdu speakers. Just as one person's food is another person's poison >> so it is that one person's information is just for another persons merely >> a physical phenomenon such as processes in nature, ink on paper, sounds or >> EM signals. Shannon developed a theory of signals in which some of those >> signals have the ability to inform some recipients. I hope this collection >> of words has informed you other than giving you the knowledge of my view >> as to what constitutes information. Thanks to Joseph, Pedro, and Igor for >> the opportunity to reflect on the nature of information. If you enjoyed my >> post and would like to learn more about my views on information please >> send me an email off line and I will send you an email version of my book >> What is Information? Propagating Organization in the Biosphere, the >> Symbolosphere, the Technosphere and the Econosphere for free. And now you >> know what an infomercial is. This was an infomercial because of my offer >> to share my book with you erudite scholars of FIS whose posts I always >> enjoy. With kind regards - Bob >> ______________________ >> >> Robert K. Logan >> Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto >> Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD >> http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan >> www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan >> www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2014-10-20, at 1:57 PM, PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Joseph Brenner >>> To: Igor Gurevich ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis >>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results >>> which impossible to get only by physical methods >>> >>> Dear Igor, Dear Gerhard and Colleagues, >>> >>> In Igor's summary of his recent work, I read the following absoutely >>> critical statement: >>> " It is shown that the expansion of the Universe is the source of >>> information formation, wherein a variety of physical processes in an >>> expanding Universe provide information formation." I take this as >>> meaning that the expansion of the Universe as such does not produce >>> information. >>> >>> Gerhard's formulation is slightly different (my paraphrase): >>> "The first assymetry in energy distribution, following the singularity, >>> is the source of information formation". >>> >>> My question is, therefore, how best to combine these insights. For >>> example, we may say that the variety of physical processes are all the >>> consequence of, and subsequently reflect, a first assymetry. >>> >>> It is also interesting to note that the approaches of both Igor and >>> Gerhard imply the emergence of information through the interactional >>> impact (informational interactions) of fundamental forces on particles, >>> extended by Gerhard to somewhat higher levels of organization (life) >>> than Igor. >>> >>> I look forward to further discussion of these fundamental issues. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Joseph >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Igor Gurevich >>> To: Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2014 9:47 AM >>> Subject: [Fis] Physical Informatics contains fundamental results which >>> impossible to get only by physical methods >>> >>> Dear Pedro C. Marijuan, >>> Dear colleagues, >>> I send you "The main results of Gurevich I.M. (Physical Informatics >>> contains fundamental results which impossible to get only by physical >>> methods)" >>> and "Igor Gurevich: Main publications in English" . >>> With best wishes. >>> Igor Gurevich >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Fis mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Fis mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Fis mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> > >
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