Dear All, I particularly approve of theJose's comment that:
".... following D. Hofstadter, H. von Foerster, N. Luhmann and others we could think of a agent/observer as a self-referential loop." That is because I show that such loops occur at the locus of control of biological systems where the mind is situated. In complexity biology, the condition is known as 'criticality'. Maybe the idea of a 'perfectly self-observing loop', as a suitable self-referential structure could be inserted in the paper. I will suggest a suitable place, May I also draw your attention to the fact that Karen Barad has written extensively on the reality of the Agent. Her book, Agential Realism ..... is published by Routledge. No less a scientist than Brian Josephson at the Cavendish Laboratory in Cambridge is deeply interested in her work and regards it as of fundamental importance. All best wishes to you all, Alex Hankey On 16 October 2017 at 05:04, Jose Javier Blanco Rivero < javierwe...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Krassimir, dear all, > > I have noticed that some descriptions of information make use of > anthropocentric metaphors and that might be misguiding (for instance, > subjective and objective information (Sung)). Agent is a concept that > retains some sort of action-theoretic background but at the same time > assumes the existence of nonhuman agents. Agency would be then a causal > relation wherein the agent "causes" some sort of effects. > > I don`t feel confortable with this concept. I prefer the the concept of > observer. But this one is problematic too, for the same reason: it is > supposed that a human is there watching, feeling, measuring, etc. > > I think we have to get rid of these humanistic assumptions in order to > gain insight into the issues we want to explore. > > Definitely I don`t think I have the answer, but following D. Hofstadter, > H. von Foerster, N. Luhmann and others we could think of a agent/observer > as a self-referential loop. Most of information processing devices consist > of a design of some sort of feedback loop. I don`t know if we could > translate this idea to all the kinds of systems we all deal with. But it > would be worth finding out. > > An operative loop enables the differentiation of system and environment. > The system acquires the capacity to control its own behavior. At some point > its internal states are so many that it biffucartes and grow complex. > Subsystems can differentiate by the same mechanism. So, that`s my point: > one have to look for self-referential loops in order to find the > observer/agent. > > An intelligent agent would be some kind of loop (strange loop, maybe). > It`s just a hypothesis anyway... > > Best regards, > El oct 15, 2017 6:29 PM, "Krassimir Markov" <mar...@foibg.com> escribió: > >> Dear FIS Colleagues, >> >> After nice collaboration last weeks, a paper Called “Data versus >> Information” is prepared in very beginning draft variant and already is >> sent to authors for refining. >> Many thanks for fruitful work! >> >> What we have till now is the understanding that the information is some >> more than data. >> In other words: >> d = r >> i = r + e >> where: >> d => data; >> i => information; >> r => reflection; >> e => something Else, internal for the Agent (subject, interpreter, >> etc.). >> >> Simple question: What is “Agent”? >> >> When an entity became an Agent? What is important to qualify the entity as >> Agent or as an Intelligent Agent? What kind of agent is the cell? At the >> end - does information exist for Agents or only for Intelligent Agents? >> >> Thesis: Information exists only for the Intelligent Agents. >> >> Antithesis: Information exists at all levels of Agents. >> >> Friendly greetings >> Krassimir >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Fis mailing list >> Fis@listas.unizar.es >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> > > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > -- Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science, SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195 Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789 ____________________________________________________________ 2015 JPBMB Special Issue on Integral Biomathics: Life Sciences, Mathematics and Phenomenological Philosophy <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00796107/119/3>
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