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On 2017-11-01 07:25 PM, Sungchul Ji wrote:
> Hi Michell and FISers,
> "*Data* is that what we see by using the *eyes*. *Information* is
> that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the
> *brain*; because it is the background to that what we see by using
> the eyes."

Hi Sung

I see this is a common theme here.

I generally agree,
but would prefer to use noise and connotation here.

the eye receives noise, it is refined along the neuro-nets,
until at some higher level it receives a connotation.

While some input may be a round red gradient, the neuronet will find
edges and the higher nets connotation maybe red ball.

Would you agree that an independent clause is the atom of information?

So getting back to the topic,  of dialogue or mind-mind.
An expressed independent clause (whether as an image, language, or
performance),  is the fundamental atoms with which we communicate.

The expression is itself noise, but with a sufficiently similar
receiver, it can be parsed back into an independent clause.

Certain concepts, like definitions, may require multiple
independent-clauses to support them,  making a molecule of information.

> If you have any question or comments, let me know.
> Sung
> f                      g (*eyes/brain*)
> Reality ------------>  Sign -------------------> Interpretant
> |                          (*Data*) ^
> | |
> |__________________________________________________|
> h (information)
> Figure 1.    f = measurement or *eyes*; g = mental process or
> *brain; h = correspondence or *information flow
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
*From:* Fis <fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Michel Petitjean
> <petitjean.chi...@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017
> 5:29 PM *To:* fis *Subject:* Re: [Fis] mind-mind
> Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All,
> I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly
> from Mind to Mind. Being a materialist, I consider that only matter
> exists. Does it mean that information is matter or energy? No. Let
> me discuss about this contradiction. Parenthesis: energy is linked
> to mass through math modeling of physical laws, and mass is a
> property of matter (could also be linked to a modeling concept, but
> it is unimportant here). People (not only scientists) build math
> and non math models to attempt to explain what they observe. Would
> you consider that math is matter? Probably no. Thus math and non
> math models that we build in our heads are not matter. However they
> are produced through some biochemical process, and as such they
> originate from matter. Eventually, it could be considered that math
> and other concepts are a somewhat special part of matter, but I
> think that claim would not be accepted in our current language(s). 
> I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in
> our heads. In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not
> worse. Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as
> believers do not impose to me the consequences of their beliefs. 
> Religious beliefs must be private affairs. Here, please accept my
> apologies if some of you are shocked by the previous sentences.
> Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some 
> situations. However, I do not claim that information can be reduced
> to the math concepts of information.
> To conclude:
> 1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro.
> 2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am
> a poor philosopher. Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be
> able to elaborate a coherent theory about life, consciousness ,
> etc. May be it is impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc. 
> All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss
> information and so on.
> 3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain
> the one of Karl. Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017: "Data
> is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we
> do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; 
> because it is the background to that what we see by using the
> eyes."
> All my best,
> Michel.
> Michel Petitjean MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7, 35 rue
> Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France. Phone: +331 5727 8434;
> Fax: +331 5727 8372 E-mail: petitjean.chi...@gmail.com
> (preferred), michel.petitj...@univ-paris-diderot.fr 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpetitj
>> Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues,
>> Thank you for the nice remark.
>> I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no
>> participate in any experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind.
>> Maybe you had taken place in such experiments. Please, give link
>> to publications in scientific issues about this very interesting
>> phenomenon.
>> Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind,
>> why you use FIS List to send your ideas to us?
>> Friendly greetings Krassimir
>> PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I
>> please to excuse me for answering the next posts after week.
>> From: Alex Hankey Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM To:
>> Krassimir Markov Cc: FIS Webinar Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10
>> Principles
>> RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
>> M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities.
>> Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively
>> comprehended reflections are information.
>> ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in
>> Rupert Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication. Lots of Quantitative
>> Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore.
>> The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows
>> that such Information States Are Not Material Entities. They are
>> based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons.
>> The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this
>> phenomenon becomes one of Four Separate Ways to Generate
>> Empirical Evidence in support of them.
>> Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy.
>> This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be
>> supported.
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