Dear Karl, your words are so intriguing, that I will shamelessy quote them (and you, of course!), in my next papers. I like very much your concept of sequential as well as commutative symbols in a biological context.
Concerning your very interesting issue of the possible working principle that elucidates the interaction between sequences and mixtures, I have a (shameless, of course!) idea of mine: http://vixra.org/abs/1801.0117 Again, thanks a lot for your very nice comment. And hallo to Pedro, who, it seems absourd, has to leave. With his enthusiasm, he is surely younger that the most of my patients! ...and I an a pediatrician... > Il 2 febbraio 2018 alle 13.08 Karl Javorszky <karl.javors...@gmail.com> ha > scritto: > > Dear Arturo, > > > > thank you for your forceful presentation of contemporary thoughts on > theoretical biology, specifically the problem of what the term “genetic > identity” in actual fact means. > > > > Your handyman offers you tools which support that what you say. You say: > “ … Here we ask: what does “matching description” mean? Has it something to > do with “identity”? Going through different formulations of the principle of > identity, we describe diverse possible meanings of the term “matching > description”. …” > > A very simple solution is to enumerate each and all of the variants of > whatever can have a description. Then we switch to a different describing > system and again describe all variants of whatever can have a description. > This is like making an inventory of the contents of one’s office: once with > regard to the things’ colour, once to their size. To each description we > attach a natural number. The inventory number of the red coffee cup on the > table will be probably different in the inventory list based on things’ > colour, to the inventory number of the same cup in the inventory list > according to size. The next step is to look for rules that allow matching the > two inventory numbers. Then we have “matching descriptions”. > > In genetics, the combinatorial problem becomes quite evident. We > enumerate along time and we enumerate across time, too. We count the > sequential place of the elements of the DNA, and match this sequence to the > contemporary composition that is the living organism. Life happens in the > moment, across the temporal line, while the rules of assemblage and > maintenance are registered in a sequential form, along the temporal line. > > We overcome the difficulty by employing as symbols for a general method > of enumeration the sequential number of the element within its cycle during > reorders. These symbols are as well sequential as well commutative. Symbols > that are both commutative and sequential are the basis for counting > consistently. > > The picture becomes rather entertaining, as one finds that Nature uses a > clever little accounting trick. If one deals with a dozen or so cycles of > about 6 elements each, one can switch between how many, when, where and what > almost at one’s wishes. The working principle of the numeric connector > between enumerating across and along a sequence is explained > inhttp://www.oeis.org/A242615 . As said before, if we look at 66 elements all > at the same time (in a commutative fashion), what remains to be predicted, is > where specific combinations of symbols are to be expected. If we see 11 > sequenced groups of 6 elements each, we can predict when, where and what will > be existing (contemporary). > > The interaction between sequences and mixtures is a real, disruptive > game-changer. One has to re-learn all the basics of arithmetic. The positive > side is, that after having understood which basic rounding errors one has > learnt at elementary school, unlearning these and instead learning to use a > stricter concept of consistently counting, during this process of > self-education one will have found the answers to the questions you so > eloquently present. > > PS.: > > 1) J Theor Biol 2000 Aug 21; 205(4):663-6 Interaction between sequences > and mixtures > > 2) The lecture series: Learn to Count in Twelve Easy Steps was given in > FIS in 2013 > > > > > > 2018-02-01 17:54 GMT+01:00 <tozziart...@libero.it > mailto:tozziart...@libero.it >: > > > > > > Dear Karl and Pedro, > > > > A unifying principle underlies the organization of physical and > > biological systems. It relates to a well-known topological theorem which > > succinctly states that an activity on a planar circumference projects to > > two activities with “matching description” into a sphere. Here we ask: what > > does “matching description” mean? Has it something to do with “identity”? > > Going through different formulations of the principle of identity, we > > describe diverse possible meanings of the term “matching description”. We > > demonstrate that the concepts of “sameness”, “equality”, “belonging > > together” stand for intertwined levels with mutual interactions. By showing > > that “matching” description is a very general and malleable concept, we > > provide a novel testable approach to “identity” that yields helpful > > insights into physical and biological matters. Indeed, we illustrate how a > > novel mathematical approach derived from the Borsuk-Ulam theorem, termed > > bio-BUT, might explain the astonishing biological “multiplicity from > > identity” of evolving living beings as well as their biochemical > > arrangements. > > > > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610717302055 > > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610717302055 > > > > > > > > > > > Il 1 febbraio 2018 alle 17.16 Karl Javorszky > > <karl.javors...@gmail.com mailto:karl.javors...@gmail.com > ha scritto: > > > > > > Biodiversity and Cartography > > > > > > > > > > > > The excellent summary by Pedro of the session just past > > > highlights several different areas of processes, which appear to be > > > interrelated at least in some methodological ways. Pedro says in effect: > > > “… systems such as circulatory, pulmonary, renal, brain, etc. …” appear > > > to work in a comparable fashion, which has probably to do with fusing of > > > two different spaces into one common space. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please allow me to propose a visualisation. We see a > > > landscape with hills and valleys. Some local biotopes have evolved, in > > > which specific flora and fauna are endemic, well adapted to their > > > respective local circumstances. We suspect that there are common traits > > > present in the management of the diverse habitats, with some obviously > > > sustainable feedback loops – otherwise the area would be barren. In this > > > allegory, if one investigates the functions in circulatory systems, one > > > would be likened to someone investigating insect life in a rainy forest > > > in a division of our imagined landscape. A person looking into the > > > workings of the renal systems could be seen as a team investigating the > > > life of mammals in a savanna. > > > > > > > > > > > > Among these field workers, a land surveyor tries to find > > > someone who would be interested in a new way to formalise the parameters > > > of each and all of the habitats, and tabulate every possible variety of > > > anything that lives in any of the habitats. This invention is way beyond > > > the needs of any of the field teams investigating the adaptations the > > > fauna had to undergo due to the properties of the flora, or partly the > > > other way around. The teams have heard about trigonometry and satellite > > > positioning, but they are not involved with the infrastructure of > > > science. It would take a road building engineer to see slopes and angles > > > everywhere, and of that profession are the biologists not. The teams > > > could have heard about continual change, because they understand that > > > change is what life is all about, but they had never thought to be > > > possible to actually use measurable change tools like one uses a scalable > > > microscope. > > > > > > > > > > > > Trigonometry would have remained a special pastime for > > > scientists, had not lenses, oculars and sextants been produced to the > > > necessary degree of mechanical precision. For the applications of > > > trigonometry to become ubiquitous in our everyday life, it was necessary > > > to have achieved progress in fine mechanics and precision measurement > > > tools. The technology had to keep step with the ideas. Both the ideas > > > were present and the tools have become available. The innovation could > > > become integrated into the culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Presently, we try to understand the concept of information. > > > In Pedro’s words: “… two 3D projections are fused into a 4D one. The gain > > > in information is evident …”. The implication of Pedro’s thought is that > > > sequences, generally: order, are depositories of information, which gets > > > – in a fashion – released or actualised in the moment of the fusion of > > > two spaces into a common, third, space. > > > > > > This state of affairs puts the problem with technology and > > > ideas on its head. We do have the technology to produce any kind of > > > imaginable order and disorder and to find such closed loops that are > > > self-replicating. What we lack presently is the understanding by the > > > prospective users that they need such a tool, and that such a tool is a) > > > thinkable, b) designable, c) realisable, d) working, e) useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > To give an example: > > > > > > The two spaces Pedro refers to are well defined. They can be > > > observed by reordering expressions of a+b=c on the properties > > > {a+b,a;b-2a,a;a-2b,b-2a (A), a+b,b;b-2a,a-2b;a-2b,a (B)}. Euclid spaces > > > (A) and (B) merge together into Newton space (C), of which the axes are > > > a+b, b-2a, a-2b. The axes of space (C) have each two sub-axes: this is > > > the reason that 1 logical linear position can have 4 planar > > > coordinate-pairs. (This was narrated some two years ago in this FIS > > > chatroom also, being Step Eight of the lecture Learn to Count in Twelve > > > Easy Steps. Otherwise see: Natural Orders.) > > > > > > > > > > > > May be suggestion be allowed that it would be more precise to > > > talk of merging (co-resonance) of planes rather than of merging of > > > spaces. In a logical sense, the space is generated by a continuous turn > > > of 3 planes and should not be assumed to have an independent, a-priori > > > existence. > > > > > > > > > > > > The land surveyor presents his compliments to the officials > > > involved in managing progress of society and may politely suggest, that > > > some precision tools have been fabricated, by which the results of the > > > endoscopy of order and information can be unwrapped, extricated and > > > applied to manifold uses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2018-01-30 14:06 GMT+01:00 Pedro C. Marijuan > > > <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es >: > > > > > > > > > > Dear FISers, > > > > > > > > Apart from the very interesting critique by Sungchul, > > > > there is an intriguing comment I would like to make respect the new > > > > evolutionary views presented. I will risk to discuss on a topic, > > > > topology, too far from my usual fields. So I trust the benevolence of > > > > FIS readers. > > > > > > > > As far as we have been told, the germ line cells, the > > > > gametes, contain each one a DNA algorithmic "hemi-description" of the > > > > future multicellular ensemble organism. When fertilization occurs, the > > > > two different hemi-descriptions are put together in a unique, complete > > > > DNA algorithm. Then, paying attention to the BUT (Borsuk Ulam Theorem) > > > > insights presented in this list by Tozzi and Peters, we might interpret > > > > that two 3D projections are fused into a 4D one. The gain in > > > > information is evident, and it is this gain what makes possible the > > > > construction of the multicellular ensemble. That 4D structures and > > > > dynamics are present in the multicellular may be evidenced by the > > > > fractality of most of that construction (systems such as circulatory, > > > > pulmonary, renal, brain, etc.). Actually the presence of 4D dynamics in > > > > cerebral information processing has been repeatedly highlighted by > > > > different authors. Now, what John Torday argues, is that an essential > > > > mission of the multicellular construct becomes the gathering of > > > > adaptive epigenetic marks editing the 3D hemi-descriptions, so that the > > > > future ensemble may be better adapted to its environment... > > > > > > > > In the extent to which the above has any cogency, there > > > > emerges a new disciplinary front to check the enigmatic continuation of > > > > the gamete/zigote/organism along the eons of life. > > > > > > > > Best--Pedro > > > > > > > > > > > > El 24/01/2018 a las 15:33, JOHN TORDAY escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear FIS colleagues, > > > > Pedro has pointed out some rookie errors in my post. You can find my > > > > paper "From cholesterol to consciousness" at > > > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28830682 > > > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28830682 . Hopefully you have > > > > access to the paper without having to buy it. If you don't please email > > > > me at jtor...@ucla.edu mailto:jtor...@ucla.edu and i will send you a > > > > copy. As for addressing consciousness at the cellular/molecular level, > > > > I understand that the mental health professionals have a problem with > > > > consciousness beyond the brain/mind. But I consider that > > > > anthropocentric. Just like every other aspect of our physiology, > > > > consciousness is the endogenization of environmental factors. In the > > > > case of consciousness it is the vertical integration of calcium fluxes > > > > for all of the cells of the organism. All organisms are conscious of > > > > their surroundings to one degree or another. And self-reference is, in > > > > my opinion, a result of the Singularity/Big Bang, so it would apply to > > > > all organisms, unicellular and multicellular alike. I refer to the > > > > experiments of Helmut Plattner, exposing paramecia to glucose. When the > > > > paramecium homes in on the sugar its 'nervous system' of calcium flux > > > > lights up just like the neurons in our brains. And as to the > > > > extrapolation from individual consciousness to cosmology based on the > > > > homologies between Quantum Mechanics and Evolutionary Biology, I see > > > > that as a means of fully understanding the significance of > > > > consciousness as the connection between the animate and inanimate as > > > > one continuous Singularity. It is only in that way that the true nature > > > > of Nature can be fully understood. As for smaller increments, the work > > > > of Daniel Fels on electromagnetic communication between cells may hold > > > > the answer (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4793142/ > > > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4793142/ ). > > > > > > > > > > Best, John > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Pedro C. > > > > > Marijuan <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear John > > > > > and FIS colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > > > It was nice hearing your response. For > > > > > > technical reasons of the server, attachments are unwelcome (and > > > > > > often directly rejected). Send please a web address where > > > > > > interested people can download your document. Also, it is better if > > > > > > you send directly your response to FIS list (fis@listas.unizar.es > > > > > > mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es ). About your content, I see a couple > > > > > > of problems introducing "consciousness" at the cellular/molecular > > > > > > level. For this term has a very definite meaning in the ad hoc > > > > > > research that is taken place during last decades. Conflating it > > > > > > with basic cellular processes may not be necessary, given that > > > > > > other terms (more realistic ones?) are available. For instance, I > > > > > > referred to self-referential cognition. In any case, I agree that > > > > > > classical autopoiesis falls too short of what is needed... > > > > > > Besides, about the cosmological relationship with fundamental > > > > > > physics, is it a convenient step? Does it introduce a premature > > > > > > closure in the bio-informational thinking process? > > > > > > > > > > > > Best--Pedro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El 22/01/2018 a las 16:02, JOHN TORDAY > > > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear FISers, I greatly appreciate Pedro's comments regarding my > > > > > > New Year Lecture. I fully agree with his comment " That life's > > > > > > physiology is based on the conjunction of a few principles: > > > > > > neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and homeostasis-homeorhesis" applies to > > > > > > non-living states too. I did not intend to make that statement > > > > > > exclusive, and if it sounded like that Pedro's clarification is > > > > > > important. In fact have just published a paper entitled "Quantum > > > > > > Mechanics Predicts Evolutionary Biology" which is predicated on the > > > > > > hypothesis that self-referential self-organization is the result of > > > > > > the Singularity/Big Bang, Newton's Third Law of Thermodynamics that > > > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction. That idea would > > > > > > apply to both evolutionary biology and to balanced chemical > > > > > > reactions alike. As for the question of the emergence of > > > > > > self-referential consciousness 'right at the beginning', I am in > > > > > > favor of that concept, as I have expressed it in a recent paper, > > > > > > entitled "From Cholesterol to Consciousness" (see attached) so I > > > > > > look forward to reading your comments about that idea as well, > > > > > > since it has the potential to fully integrate physics and biology > > > > > > in my humble opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:01 AM, > > > > > > > Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > > > > > > > mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear FISers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Going to the extreme, I think > > > > > > > > this year opening lecture can be summarized in three > > > > > > > > contentious points. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. That life's physiology is > > > > > > > > based on the conjunction of a few principles: neguentropy, > > > > > > > > chemiosmosis, and homeostasis-homeorhesis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. That communication (cell > > > > > > > > signaling) is an essential factor in the multicellular > > > > > > > > evolution towards complexity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. That epigenetic inheritance > > > > > > > > and the obligate recursion to the unicellular state become the > > > > > > > > basis of a new evolutionary theory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree with point 1, as I > > > > > > > > think some nonliving states could also be characterized by > > > > > > > > those principles (eg, chemical cycles/hypercycles in marine > > > > > > > > vents, and other outcomes derived from "energy flows"); > > > > > > > > besides, some previous "info stuff" has to be in place. Then I > > > > > > > > completely agree with point 2, for signaling is not just > > > > > > > > another characteristic of the cell, it is "the" eukaryotic > > > > > > > > trait par excellence. And I am curious on how point 3 could be > > > > > > > > further substantiated... In this respect I recommend the two > > > > > > > > papers that Bill sent to the list a few weeks ago. Do we need > > > > > > > > to postulate the emergence of a form of "self-referential > > > > > > > > cognition" right at the beginning? > > > > > > > > Perhaps! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best--Pedro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El 09/01/2018 a las 19:05, Bill > > > > > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pedro and Colleagues, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been following the > > > > > > > > > thread of comments with great interest, all of which have > > > > > > > > > all been occasioned by John Torday's profound insights about > > > > > > > > > the nature of evolutionary development in light of the > > > > > > > > > importance of cell-cell signaling and molecular biology. > > > > > > > > > From the comments, it is clear that there is a strong impulse > > > > > > > > > to seek a means of integrating the role of symbiogenesis, > > > > > > > > > viruses and mobile elements, multilevel selection, niche > > > > > > > > > construction, genomic plasticity into a common narrative with > > > > > > > > > an informational perspective at its foundation. > > > > > > > > > In the spirit of that > > > > > > > > > line of discussion, I am offering two links that discuss > > > > > > > > > evolution as an biologic information management system. Some > > > > > > > > > of this work shares direct commonality with John's, since he > > > > > > > > > and I are frequent collaborators. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/5/2/21/htm > > > > > > > > > http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/5/2/21/htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071730233X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071730233X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both of these articles > > > > > > > > > can be considered as complementary to Pedro's very fine > > > > > > > > > article, 'How prokaryotes ‘encode’ their environment: > > > > > > > > > Systemic tools for organizing the information flow', which is > > > > > > > > > in BioSystems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am grateful to John for > > > > > > > > > inviting me to participate in the forum and to Pedro for > > > > > > > > > encouraging me to share these manuscripts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William B. Miller, Jr., > > > > > > > > > M.D. > > > > > > > > > 602-463-5236 > > > > > > > > > wbmill...@cox.net > > > > > > > > > mailto:wbmill...@cox.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Pedro C. Marijuán > > > > > > > > Grupo de Bioinformación / > > > > > > > > Bioinformation Group > > > > > > > > Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias > > > > > > > > de la Salud > > > > > > > > Centro de Investigación > > > > > > > > Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) > > > > > > > > Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, > > > > > > > > planta 0 > > > > > > > > 50009 Zaragoza, Spain > > > > > > > > Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) > > > > > > > > pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > > > > > > > > mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ > > > > > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Fis mailing > > > > > > > > list Fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es > > > > > > > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > > > > > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Pedro C. Marijuán > > > > > > Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation > > > > > > Group > > > > > > Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud > > > > > > Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón > > > > > > (CIBA) > > > > > > Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0 > > > > > > 50009 Zaragoza, Spain > > > > > > Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) > > > > > > pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > > > > > > mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > > > > > > > > > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ > > > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Fis mailing list > > > > > Fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es > > > > > > > > > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > Pedro C. Marijuán > > > > Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group > > > > Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud > > > > Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) > > > > Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0 > > > > 50009 Zaragoza, Spain > > > > Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) > > > > pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > > > > mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Fis mailing list > > > > Fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es > > > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Fis mailing list > > > Fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es > > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > > > > > > > > > > > Arturo Tozzi > > > > AA Professor Physics, University North Texas > > > > Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy > > > > Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba > > > > http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > Arturo Tozzi AA Professor Physics, University North Texas Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/
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