Dear FIS colleagues, Pedro has pointed out some rookie errors in my post. You can find my paper "From cholesterol to consciousness" at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28830682. Hopefully you have access to the paper without having to buy it. If you don't please email me at jtor...@ucla.edu and i will send you a copy. As for addressing consciousness at the cellular/molecular level, I understand that the mental health professionals have a problem with consciousness beyond the brain/mind. But I consider that anthropocentric. Just like every other aspect of our physiology, consciousness is the endogenization of environmental factors. In the case of consciousness it is the vertical integration of calcium fluxes for all of the cells of the organism. All organisms are conscious of their surroundings to one degree or another. And self-reference is, in my opinion, a result of the Singularity/Big Bang, so it would apply to all organisms, unicellular and multicellular alike. I refer to the experiments of Helmut Plattner, exposing paramecia to glucose. When the paramecium homes in on the sugar its 'nervous system' of calcium flux lights up just like the neurons in our brains. And as to the extrapolation from individual consciousness to cosmology based on the homologies between Quantum Mechanics and Evolutionary Biology, I see that as a means of fully understanding the significance of consciousness as the connection between the animate and inanimate as one continuous Singularity. It is only in that way that the true nature of Nature can be fully understood. As for smaller increments, the work of Daniel Fels on electromagnetic communication between cells may hold the answer ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4793142/).
Best, John On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan < pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote: > Dear John and FIS colleagues, > > It was nice hearing your response. For technical reasons of the server, > *attachments > are unwelcome* (and often directly rejected). Send please a web address > where interested people can download your document. Also, it is better if > you send directly your response to FIS list (*fis@listas.unizar.es > <fis@listas.unizar.es>*). About your content, I see a couple of problems > introducing "consciousness" at the cellular/molecular level. For this term > has a very definite meaning in the *ad hoc* research that is taken place > during last decades. Conflating it with basic cellular processes may not be > necessary, given that other terms (more realistic ones?) are available. For > instance, I referred to self-referential cognition. In any case, I agree > that classical autopoiesis falls too short of what is needed... Besides, > about the cosmological relationship with fundamental physics, is it a > convenient step? Does it introduce a premature closure in the > bio-informational thinking process? > > Best--Pedro > > > El 22/01/2018 a las 16:02, JOHN TORDAY escribió: > > Dear FISers, I greatly appreciate Pedro's comments regarding my New Year > Lecture. I fully agree with his comment " That life's physiology is based > on the conjunction of a few principles: neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and > homeostasis-homeorhesis" applies to non-living states too. I did not intend > to make that statement exclusive, and if it sounded like that Pedro's > clarification is important. In fact have just published a paper entitled > "Quantum Mechanics Predicts Evolutionary Biology" which is predicated on > the hypothesis that self-referential self-organization is the result of > the Singularity/Big Bang, Newton's Third Law of Thermodynamics that every > action has an equal and opposite reaction. That idea would apply to both > evolutionary biology and to balanced chemical reactions alike. As for the > question of the emergence of self-referential consciousness 'right at the > beginning', I am in favor of that concept, as I have expressed it in a > recent paper, entitled "From Cholesterol to Consciousness" (see attached) > so I look forward to reading your comments about that idea as well, since > it has the potential to fully integrate physics and biology in my humble > opinion. > > On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan < > pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote: > >> Dear FISers, >> >> Going to the extreme, I think this year opening lecture can be summarized >> in three contentious points. >> >> 1. That life's physiology is based on the conjunction of a few >> principles: neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and homeostasis-homeorhesis. >> >> 2. That communication (cell signaling) is an essential factor in the >> multicellular evolution towards complexity. >> >> 3. That epigenetic inheritance and the obligate recursion to the >> unicellular state become the basis of a new evolutionary theory. >> >> I disagree with point 1, as I think some nonliving states could also be >> characterized by those principles (eg, chemical cycles/hypercycles in >> marine vents, and other outcomes derived from "energy flows"); besides, >> some previous "info stuff" has to be in place. Then I completely agree with >> point 2, for signaling is not just another characteristic of the cell, it >> is "the" eukaryotic trait par excellence. And I am curious on how point 3 >> could be further substantiated... In this respect I recommend the two >> papers that Bill sent to the list a few weeks ago. Do we need to postulate >> the emergence of a form of "self-referential cognition" right at the >> beginning? >> Perhaps! >> >> All the best--Pedro >> >> >> >> El 09/01/2018 a las 19:05, Bill escribió: >> >> Dear Pedro and Colleagues, >> >> I have been following the thread of comments with great interest, all of >> which have all been occasioned by John Torday's profound insights about the >> nature of evolutionary development in light of the importance of cell-cell >> signaling and molecular biology. From the comments, it is clear that there >> is a strong impulse to seek a means of integrating the role of >> symbiogenesis, viruses and mobile elements, multilevel selection, niche >> construction, genomic plasticity into a common narrative with an >> informational perspective at its foundation. >> In the spirit of that line of discussion, I am offering two links >> that discuss evolution as an biologic information management system. Some >> of this work shares direct commonality with John's, since he and I are >> frequent collaborators. >> >> http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/5/2/21/htm >> >> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071730233X >> >> Both of these articles can be considered as complementary to Pedro's very >> fine article, 'How prokaryotes ‘encode’ their environment: Systemic tools >> for organizing the information flow', which is in BioSystems. >> >> I am grateful to John for inviting me to participate in the forum and to >> Pedro for encouraging me to share these manuscripts. >> >> Best regards, >> Bill >> >> William B. Miller, Jr., M.D. >> 602-463-5236 <%28602%29%20463-5236> >> wbmill...@cox.net >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------- >> Pedro C. Marijuán >> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group >> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud >> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) >> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0 >> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain >> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 <+34%20976%2071%2035%2026> (& >> 6818)pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ >> ------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list >> Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > > -- > ------------------------------------------------- > Pedro C. Marijuán > Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group > Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud > Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) > Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0 > 50009 Zaragoza, Spain > Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 <+34%20976%2071%2035%2026> (& > 6818)pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ > ------------------------------------------------- > >
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