at MAX almost 50% of the sessions are about Zorn or include Zorn some how, I'm sure we'll all have a clear picture of what the future holds after MAX.
// sam robbins // pixelconsumption Clint Modien wrote: > According to Mike Chambers @ MM Zorn will.... > > http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mesh/archives/2005/08/will_zorn_requi.cfm > > > On 9/29/05, *Kevin Langdon* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > WARNING: This message contains little-to-no helpful information > and for the > most part is a rant. > > The problem with Flex pricing isn't the price itself. The problem > is it's > model. Most development I have seen is only using Flex as a > compiler, not a > service. Most applications would actually perform better if > developers > simply compiled locally using mxmlc and then used non-Flex > technologies like > Remoting or openAMF on their production servers. More developers, > able to > develop in this architecture, need to bring this up with Macromedia. > Macromedia needs to understand that we are willing to pay them for > the CPUs > that we compile on, but it is just ridiculous to expect us to pay > for the > servers serving those static swf files. > > Flash is a client-side technology. It has nothing to do with > servers and > therefore CPU pricing makes no sense. What if I were to build a > desktop > application compiled using Flex? Is Macromedia telling me that I > need to > pay for each one of my user's CPUs? > > I am holding my breath hoping that Zorn fixes this problem. > > Kevin > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of Niklas Richardson > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 4:43 AM > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Flex Server Alternatives > > Someone might have mentioned this already, but I haven't seen it. > > If you want some of the functionality of Flex (i.e. forms, data grid, > etc...) and cost is an issue, then ColdFusion MX 7 could be an > option for > you. It has a very cut down version of Flex built into it and > accessible > via ColdFusion tags, however you can still build some pretty good > app's with > it - if budget is an issue. Also, there are plenty of companies > providing > ColdFusion MX 7 hosting. > > Check out the team over at ASFusion (http://www.asfusion.com/) who are > really doing some cool stuff using ColdFusion MX 7 Flash Forms! > > Also, http://www.cfform.com/. > > > > On 29/09/05, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > > > > > On 9/29/05, Tariq Ahmed < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > > Well I don't know if I would venture to "dirt cheap". What other > > > systems > > are you referring to? > > > > See SAP for starters, then once you jump that hurdle, now look at > > anything with the word "ORACLE" in it. > > > > > > > If you're enterprise, and building mission critical apps, and > > > especially > > if it affects financial performance and need to be SOX compliant > > you're basic setup is: > > > > > > > - 1 Development WS > > > - 1 QA Server > > > - High Availability Setup (at least 2 load balanced machines). > > > - Disaster Recovery Site (min 1 web server). > > > > > > If you're using decent hardware with 4CPU Xeons, you've got 5 > > > machines * 4 > > cpus/ea = 20 CPUs * $15K/cpu = $300 000. > > > > > > You would have to REALLY boost automation, workflow efficiency, > > > etc... to > > recuperate the cost of Flex licensing and Flex application > development > > (not everyone is Scott Barnes level super coder) vs a > CF/Whatever based > solution. > > Not to say that it can't be done, and I'm > > > > You'd still outlay the same costs if not more with a HTML based > > solution such as CFMX. Furthermore, if you are to comply with > SOX you > > have to jump through a bit more hurdles in authenticating the HTML > > solution is immune to various DOS attacks (injection attacks, packet > > sniffing the works). Then you have resources and costs associated to > > building a HTML application. If you are going down the path of the > > AJAX momentum, good luck in comparing the two. > > > > I'm also talking about systems which have a status "Please turn off > > in 1 year, no ifs, no but's". These do exist in enterprise, > whereby a > > legacy green system is currently turned on and there is about a > > handful of people left in the world who know what it does, its that > > system the IT Director is scared off the most and nearly faints > when > > the LED's on the outer box suddenly goes out... Point is, something > > has to replace it and typically the cowboy approach is lock one self > > into a proprietary solution. Salvaging existing systems is > extremely > > delicate and at times hard, and the main trip up is simply that > > whatever gets put in its place isn't agile enough to cope with not > > only "replacement" but growth. Some do, some cope really well > and some > praise technologies like .NET for salvation. > > > > Other times its just this mutated be-spoked solution comprising of > > part HTML and part other that realistically is hopeless at best in > > terms of getting data in and out. > > > > We at omniEffect specialise in using FLEX to reach out and touch > > existing backend systems but provide a uniform view. If you think > > about a users daily routine how many UI's do they go in and out of > > just for farming data. How peoples perception of how data can be > > accessed is simply due to whats been handed down to them by someone > > who probably should never of had the job of deciding how UI > works. In > > stead, if you provide a uniform view that reaches out and touches > > multiple assets within an Enterprise, you now stand a better > chance of > > circumventing a lot of issues. Through FLEX you could also > provide a > > much easier and accessible way to improve on Business Processes in > > general? does that save money? most of the time its a tick for > yes. In > > some Ent Solutions its extremely hard to get a simple report, > and to do so > its this monolithic task, which can be at times put into the "too hard > basket" > > (thus we see these faction(s) of MS Access databases, excel > > spreadsheets existing..all open to screw ups, resulting in say, a > > general ledger being slightly inaccurate!)... > > > > FLEX provides a visual input into business intelligence and it may > > not be profitable, it just maybe enough to break even on. Yet, > it can > > allow folks the ability to move forward, to treat their backend as > > "content" instead of this mutated ball of part UI part Logic. > > > > The main problem with FLEX today, is its not really being pushed as > > much as it should. There are too many "Kiosk" style applications > > floating around the net as "look here, this is a great example of > > flex"... which is great...yet if you put these examples into > > perspective and outlay say 300k as Tariq put it, it starts > looking like > probably a bad ROI. > > > > To me FLEX so far is this powerful tool that every ones too > scared to > use. > > Mission critical systems? hmm, I'm a realist in saying that the > > chances of FLEX getting that much prime time within a company this > > early in the game, is probably a risk unto itself. There isn't a lot > > of skillbase in the market yet to drive home its power as so far we > > have seen probably a lot of backend developers suddenly become > "Flex > > developers" which is scary..not because they are dumb, far from > it, it > > takes a whole new mindset to play in the RIA world as we are > stuck between > half-website and half-thickware application. > > > > FLEX is dirt cheap to someone who's staring at a huge backend > system > > that's been told in order to upgrade, you must implement this weird > > HTML/JS based solution... > > > > In my opinion, FLEX 2.0 will give us a better stance in "FLEX goes > > Prime Time", but that's another discussion. > > > > > > > > If all we are using FLEX for is a simple replacement to an existing > > "HTML application" or as a POC, yes its expensive prov > > > > > sure it can (reminder: I am a huge Flex proponent); but looking at > > > things > > from a business sense it has to be measureable and provable. Eg > I made > > one Flex app that compared to what was there before saves about > > $200K/yr, but how much more it would save over a CF based > solution is hard > to measure. > > > > You made FLEX replace an existing application, did it simply > replace > > or increase its appeal? Thats the key difference. If you are buying > > FLEX to replace existing stuff and that's all it does is put a > "Flash" > > front-end to a HTML version then you've just spent a fortune on > > something that probably didn't require it. FLEX provides the > ability > > to shift perception on how data works, go from rows of peoples names > > to displaying each person as a document. Open that document and you > > find more data centered around that person. Its got the power > yet to > > provide your users the ability to see more details or cull > details back... > its just not being. > > > > Selling FLEX to management is probably the hardest thing to do, as > > firstly what the hell is a "FLEX" anyway? secondly "You mean flash > > does more then spank the monkey? really how?"... at omniEffect > we do a > > presos and the first thing they see is the UI and immediately start > > the whole "well that's all well and good to have a pretty UI but > > listen here sonny, we have this big complex thing called a > backend and > > it needs to talk to that, you get me?" - which we then illustrate > > thats actually the easiest part, and then once they overcome > that, its > > back to the UI and suddenly they are seeing visions of how data > > intertwines to formulate this "great view" - thus enter an emotional > interface. > > > > Price? at this point if you sold them on the fact that you > could put > > a FLEX UI on anything they have behind the scenes and they have 100% > > total control over the UI, price becomes a secondary point. The > key to > > selling FLEX is, don't tell them its FLEX. Say "Unified > View"..... if > > they ask technically whats going on, tell them, but don't try and > > sound like a Pro-Flash Salesman... Flash still needs more > exposure to > > those who don't know what Macromedia does fully and it sadly > gets coupled > a lot with the "Skip Intro" > > or "spank the monkey" gimmicks. > > > > > > > > > So when trying to sell to management the sexy $300K Flex > solution vs > > > the > > not as sexy $15K CF solution which gets the job done - you have to > > account for at least a $285Kdifference. Because the opportunity cost > > is that $285K could have bought you 3 or 4 more developers for that > > year and double your development capacity which could have > resulted in > > a bunch more apps that save or make money that aren't addressed > for that > year. > > > > Yeah but for every war story like this, i could produce more > > proactive ones. The ability to remove MS Access from a company > alone > > is something a lot of IT Directors will be willing to knife someone > > for. FLEX has a lot more on the table then just pretty UI, it > just needs > better shaping.. > > > Bla bla Bla... $300K is a TOUGH sell even for Enterprises with > the > > > deepest > > of pockets, and it can be done obviously, but 'dirt cheap' in my > > humble opinion is understanding it a weeeee bit. :) > > > > Depends on context i guess, for me seeing the disparate nightmares > > that exist its dddddddirt cheap...for others its expensive.. > I've had > > to hats on, i've walked in their hand on heart and swore "Buy > flex it > > saves money" but then forgot that my co-developers couldn't > bothered > > learning stuff and kept reverting back to HTML because it was > safe... > > Its a hard sell if all you have is one small POC style app on the > > workload...yet if you have a much bigger prize, it comes in > under budget. > > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Scott Barnes > > http://www.mossyblog.com > > > > -- > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > FAQ: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > Search Archives: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > <http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Web site design development Computer software development Software > > design and development Macromedia flex Software development best > > practice > > > > ________________________________ > > YAHOO! 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