Hi,

Really the advantage is that it is really easy to wrap content in a live 
region.  That was why we chose it for Drupal.  We didn't have to modify the 
progress widget (as I recall), but just wrap it in a live region.

HTH,
Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

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On 2010-09-23, at 9:36 AM, Clark, Colin wrote:

> Hey Everett,
> 
> Great feedback. A quick question:
> 
> You're using aria-live for the installation progress indicator in Drupal. It 
> sounds like the experience is comparable to using aria-valuetext. That's what 
> we're currently using in the Infusion Progress component to provide more 
> descriptive information.
> 
> Aside from the bug in NVDA where aria-valuetext causes it to go silent, are 
> there any other advantages to using aria-live instead of aria-valuetext for 
> those descriptive labels? The one downside we've found with aria-live is that 
> if progress happens quite quickly, the screen reader takes longer to read all 
> the updates than the indicator took to finish.
> 
> Thoughts or advice?
> 
> Colin
> 
> 
> On 2010-09-22, at 6:07 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote:
> 
>> I think the best choice is going to be use-case dependent.
>> 
>> In Drupal 7 we use aria-live for the installation progress indicator, 
>> basically because it was easy and quick to implement.  But, we have 
>> something like the following being read:
>> 
>> 28%, installing Field module, 13 of 28 completed.
>> 
>> Which is overly verbose, but you can see that in this case knowing about the 
>> numeric progress alone is likely not enough.
>> 
>> Probably a good generalization is to use valuenow, and to use aria-live on 
>> any dynamically changing text that is visible.
>> 
>> HTH,
>> Everett Zufelt
>> http://zufelt.ca
>> 
>> Follow me on Twitter
>> http://twitter.com/ezufelt
>> 
>> View my LinkedIn Profile
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2010-09-22, at 5:55 PM, Justin Obara wrote:
>> 
>>> Just to reiterate and summarize the results of Golam's findings, there are 
>>> a few options we have to indicate progress: 1) aria-valueNow 
>>> 2)aria-valueText and 3) aria-live.
>>> 
>>> 1) aria-valueNow
>>> 
>>> By using aria-valueNow, screen reader users will be presented with an 
>>> experience that is likely consistent with most progress indicators they 
>>> will encounter. In NVDA progress will be announced via tones of increasing 
>>> pitch. In JAWS it will just announce the number assigned to aria-valueNow 
>>> like "25". ORCA is able to read the progressbar's label.
>>> 
>>> 2) aria-valueText
>>> 
>>> Using aria-valueText can provide the user with more information about the 
>>> progress. However, it provides a somewhat different experience than what 
>>> users may be familiar with. Currently NVDA doesn't work when aria-valueText 
>>> is present, but it would be conceivable that when it does support 
>>> aria-valueText, it will not announce with tones but read the text instead. 
>>> 
>>> 3) aria-live could also be used, but the fact that the announcements can 
>>> run on long after progress has actually completed, makes this solution seem 
>>> less appealing.
>>> 
>>> Hope that helps
>>> Justin
>>> On 2010-09-21, at 5:58 PM, Chowdhury, Golam wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Colin,
>>>> 
>>>> I have completed testing progress  with ORCA, JAWS_v11, and 
>>>> JAWS_v12(beta). If we use aria-valuenow then JAWS_11 and JAWS_12(beta) 
>>>> indicates that the progress has completed. If we use aria-live then both 
>>>> JAWS_v11 and JAWS_v12(beta) mentioned completion of progress in IE and in 
>>>> FireFox was very descriptive, also buffers information about progress.  If 
>>>> we use aria-valuetext then both JAWS_v11 and JAWS_v12(beta) mentioned 
>>>> completion of progress in IE (pc-cursor and virtual-mode)and in FireFox 
>>>> was mentioning percent completed.  ORCA always reading the label in all 
>>>> cases.  For more information I have attached the test data, feel free to 
>>>> take a look at the test data and provide any kind of suggestions.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Golam Chowdhury
>>>> [email protected] | 416-977-6000 ext. 3962
>>>> Software Developer
>>>> Inclusive Design Research Centre (IDRC)
>>>> OCAD University
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Colin Clark [[email protected]]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:47 AM
>>>> To: Chowdhury, Golam
>>>> Cc: [email protected]
>>>> Subject: Re: FLUID-3671  Screen reader a11y and usability issues with 
>>>> Progress (esp. lack of feedback for screen reader users)
>>>> 
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> Justin, Golam, and I chatted further about these issues in the IRC channel 
>>>> today. Here's the log of our conversation:
>>>> 
>>>> http://wiki.fluidproject.org/display/fluid/fluid-work+IRC+Logs-2010-09-21
>>>> 
>>>> We're hoping to identify an implementation that can provide a decent user 
>>>> experience, so we're going to compare a few other screen readers to see 
>>>> how they perform. Golam is playing around with Orca now, and we'll also 
>>>> take a look at the latest version of JAWS.
>>>> 
>>>> The takeaway from this investigation so far, I think, seems to be that the 
>>>> implementation of ARIA's progress bar role is pretty buggy in most current 
>>>> screen readers. We may also want to consider some additional labelling or 
>>>> graceful degradation support to make this work even with older, buggier 
>>>> ATs.
>>>> 
>>>> Any advice or suggestions?
>>>> 
>>>> Colin
>>>> 
>>>> On 2010-09-20, at 4:49 PM, Chowdhury, Golam wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hey Guys,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Issues with Screen Reader:
>>>>> Current progress bar does not announce the progress bar status when using 
>>>>> NVDA2010 screen reader using Fire Fox 3.5.9 and 3.6.9.
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://issues.fluidproject.org/browse/FLUID-3671
>>>>> 
>>>>> During our testing we have found two options. Option one using 
>>>>> aria-valuenow and option two using aria-live. Following I have outlined 
>>>>> the pros and cons for both of the options.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Option one using aria-valuenow:
>>>>> Pros:
>>>>> -Just need to comment out the aria-valuetext
>>>>> -Works in all cases
>>>>> -Behaves similar to other progress indicators
>>>>> -Doesn't buffer
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cons:
>>>>> -Not descriptive in JAWS
>>>>> -Jaws doesn't announce completion
>>>>> 
>>>>> Option two using aria-live:
>>>>> Pros:
>>>>> -Descriptive
>>>>> -Announce all progress states
>>>>> -Works in all cases
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cons:
>>>>> -More code to add
>>>>> -Buffer announcements (will keep announcing progress after complete)
>>>>> -Behavior different then standard progress indicators
>>>>> 
>>>>> I prefer option one because of adding less code for our workaround and it 
>>>>> works in most cases. Later on when NVDA fixes their issues with 
>>>>> aria-valuetext then this will be a small code fix.  I am attaching all 
>>>>> the test cases I have tried. Any suggestion is welcome.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Golam
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> Colin Clark
>>>> Technical Lead, Fluid Project
>>>> http://fluidproject.org
>>>> 
>>>> <FLUID-3671-cases_v.2.xls>_______________________________________________________
>>>> fluid-work mailing list - [email protected]
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>>>> see http://fluidproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fluid-work
>>> 
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>> 
>> _______________________________________________________
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> 
> ---
> Colin Clark
> Technical Lead, Fluid Project
> http://fluidproject.org
> 

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