Fascinating stuff; thanks! I'm reminded of an architect I knew in Los Angeles who was translating The Odyssey from ancient Greek based on the symbolic meanings/associations of the letters. "S" suggesting "snake", etc. He did not know Greek, ancient or modern. I never saw the work, but he was saying that his resulting text was surprisingly close to the "actual meaning" of the original.
Onword, John At 03:09 PM 3/5/02 -0800, you wrote: >Iconicity is basically "form miming meaning" but It also has to do with >Pierce >This is the one of the best places to start: >http://www.arthist.lu.se/kultsem/encyclo/iconicity.html > >Have you ever studied the Basic Chinese Radicals..the really old ones.. >(Like say in Dr. L. Wieger's books) they call them "primitives" sometimes.. >These things look like what they represent.. Fire basically looks like what >it is.. It looks like some flames.. add phonosemantics to the equation and >the word for fire might sound like fire burning.. except its a little more >complicated than that.. its basically onomotopoietics and its relationship >with grammar syntactics semantics and by association semiotics, >anthropology, biolinguistics what have you.. > >For me its the potential of Iconicity in relationship with Delire that has >some nice possibilities. (sic) Have you studied Jean Jacques Lecercle? eg >Philosophy Thru The Looking Glass.. or The Violence of Language.. Great >stuff.. > > >And what would "Iconicity in Expressive Language" > >mean? Glyphs and/or rebus-type things mixed into text? If that's the > >case, then yes, I've done that. Esp. involving iconic treatment of letters > >as calligraphic signs in the midst of print. > >Its that, yes.. but more importantly its the idea that forms themselves are >intimately associated with what they themselves mean.. and this has all >kinds of ramifications for sociology, biology.. (ie Biosemiotics, many >sub-discipines, and in fact the history of language and by default all >poetics) Its sort of an obscure debate in Linguistics and Semiotics theory.. >especially as it tries to deconstruct some of the different theorists like >Eco and Goodman and basically Suassure who posit the conventional symbol and >sort of leave out iconicity as "noise" but as in > > >here this will do the trick.. >http://www.trismegistos.com/IconicityInLanguage/Articles/Emerson.html > >I will mix a few up together so you can see how the general study of >iconicity mixes with poetics >http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/french/as-sa/ASSA-No10/No10-A1.html >http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Coeur.htm >http://www.victorianweb.org/cpace/ht/wenz/image.html >here's a message fron Doctor Nanny about his symposium.. He's in a very >expensive to own book _Form Miming Meaning_ and _The Motivated Sign_ He's a >pretty important guy.. I have been in contact with him for a short time and >as soon as his archives come back on-line at the University of Amsterdam.. >He's mailing me.. >http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2854.html >http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/archive/1996-07/0005.html > >here's the Higgins collection reference: > >Cl�ver, Claus >no letters, Cl�ver ms "Iconicity and Isomorphism in Brazilian Concrete >Poems." Cook, Elizabeth: 4 letters, 1986-87. > >http://www.getty.edu/research/tools/special_collections/higgins_m11.html >http://www.trismegistos.com/IconicityInLanguage/default.html >http://www.arthist.lu.se/kultsem/sonesson/many_iconic1.html > >anyway I'm very sure I'm rambling.. I've warmed to the subject quite a bit >over the last few months.. so I'll Proomptly Shoosh.. >Lanny >http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Figures/NOEMA.HTM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John M. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 10:20 AM >Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Morhigh Cueless Queues Queuing > > > > Great-looking stuff, Solipsis. Couldn't open a couple of 'em, but the >ones > > I saw I liked... And what would "Iconicity in Expressive Language" > > mean? Glyphs and/or rebus-type things mixed into text? If that's the > > case, then yes, I've done that. Esp. involving iconic treatment of >letters > > as calligraphic signs in the midst of print. > > Onword, > > John > > > > At 08:02 AM 3/5/02 -0800, you wrote: > > >Puiguitkaat 1978 Elder's Conference > > > > > >here's one: [yaligman] (night-people) : a word for seals > > > > > >Yeah, My wife works at the publishing house that produced that work.. >They > > >had an internal auction for storeroom "junk".. and that beautiful text >was > > >among the treasures she brought home.. I think she paid 2 dollars for >it.. I > > >still swoon everytime I dig into it... I was thinking (wishing) of doing >a > > >mini-study of nasal-stop clusters or any of the phonosemantic or >ideophonic > > >(choose your flavor of iconism).. aspects of that incredible eskimo > > >language. Are you interested in Iconicity in Expressive language? I have > > >been trying to educate myself in Iconicity studies for about the last 6 > > >months. It seems like with the interest in Philadelpho Menezes here in >the > > >group, there would definitely be some interest in the vast web presence >of > > >Iconicity studies and it would make an interesting topic on the list. I >have > > >seen some Iconicity references in Dick higgins work.. > > > > > >Here are some images I have been working on which illustrate some of my > > >interest in the subject. > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > > >-------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Phanerospace Series: Iconicity as Exolinguistic transhistorical > > >imageCulture. (Noema in the Lifespace) > > > > > >These Collaged "Spaces" were created using real and fictive language >fonts. > > >Human forms are also included becoming Noema themselves. > > > > > >These spaces are aimed at providing language delimiting experiences of > > >Iconicity and providing a kind of homage to the beauty of the biomorphic > > >mark. Exobiological Thought Cultures in Image File Petridishscreen. > > > > > >(these are large printable files 1-3 megs) > > > > > >http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/istelecopulatriumsm.jpg > > > > > >http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/languefieldsm.jpg > > > > > >http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/languemuseandpoetsm.jpg > > > > > >http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/languemuseattaquesm.jpg > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >I have also started to build a webbed "Indexical" Shrine.. I tried to >riff > > >off the Idea of Icon as in religious Icon but using doublings as a >departure > > >and text patterns as "Iconic ground".. > > > > > >Eventually the scrolling text will contain hundreds of links to iconicity > > >essays and resources as well as poetic and artistic departures into this > > >mysterious realm of emergent semiotics.. The images on the left activate > > >various Ikon "Madonnas".. These will be linked some day perhaps to >poems.. > > >Please submit one if you wish and I could link it in.. The poem should > > >somehow activate the relationship between the "mother ikon" and the >"child > > >ikon" of each image.. a fluxus project? (a jumble of daedalusians).. > > > > > >http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/collagepoetry/ikonicity/ > > > > > >please excuse the webdesign.. its for IE only so far.. and its not >perfected > > >but it works.. > > > > > >ars reacta, > > >Lanny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "John M. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 4:37 AM > > >Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Morhigh Cueless Queues Queuing > > > > > > > > > > Solipsis: > > > > That Elder's Conference produced some mighty words: "skin boated wo >man's > > > > hool"! "hot iron blon eat igimaq" > > > > John > > > > > > > > At 01:10 PM 3/4/02 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Potlatch > > > > > > > > > >Ayak to un pem likan hurl > > > > >Avarriqi dans thee ole burtter'd sk 'url > > > > >aaaqaaa! hiii hiiii! buffalo whale skitterns > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Ig Liq > > > > > > > > > >Ptar My gone dun have har > > > > >baneet der Clews clum slews > > > > >im hurm the hot iron blon eat igimaq > > > > > > > > > >Truns Par > > > > > > > > > >Ent Beed slung rount shest > > > > >in clearing a hide fur symb ols slit > > > > >the wide spac'd folly of wizen'd hornamunts > > > > > > > > > >Merry Trish > > > > > > > > > >Hush uld gleamer a qimiagaat a qiniqqayag > > > > >a med ium siz ed Whal im spongimoss'd caribu > > > > >ulu a skin boated wo man's hool > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >some objects from: > > > > >* ISBN 0-936052-01-5 > > > > > LOC# 81-81107 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "John M. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 11:34 AM > > > > >Subject: FLUXLIST: More haikuless haiku > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gift > > > > > > > > > > > > F laze 'n f licker, sord a temptonitious > > > > > > p lace dans ton regard > > > > > > cadeaux you's eating cross the eye lake > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bun ter > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah f lab m ice shadow! rust an > > > > > > r ump faze > > > > > > s hit s hiver p lace the hall beyond yr (reach > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gas ket > > > > > > > > > > > > Nab 'n. t rool sofa where, you d > > > > > > rove 'n p low > > > > > > ah seal ant tasteless like a cube! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Br ick > > > > > > > > > > > > Neck smear, g h aze term inus tem > > > > > > prature an mort > > > > > > are this you can? was foaming worth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John M. Bennett > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > > > > Dr. John M. Bennett > > > > > > Curator, Avant Writing Collection > > > > > > Rare Books & Manuscripts Library > > > > > > The Ohio State University Libraries > > > > > > 1858 Neil Av Mall > > > > > > Columbus, OH 43210 USA > > > > > > > > > > > > (614) 292-8114 > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > ___________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > > Dr. John M. Bennett > > > > Curator, Avant Writing Collection > > > > Rare Books & Manuscripts Library > > > > The Ohio State University Libraries > > > > 1858 Neil Av Mall > > > > Columbus, OH 43210 USA > > > > > > > > (614) 292-8114 > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > ___________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > Dr. John M. Bennett > > Curator, Avant Writing Collection > > Rare Books & Manuscripts Library > > The Ohio State University Libraries > > 1858 Neil Av Mall > > Columbus, OH 43210 USA > > > > (614) 292-8114 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___________________________________________ > > > > __________________________________________ Dr. John M. Bennett Curator, Avant Writing Collection Rare Books & Manuscripts Library The Ohio State University Libraries 1858 Neil Av Mall Columbus, OH 43210 USA (614) 292-8114 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___________________________________________
