On Apr 9, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Alan Kay wrote:

> These approaches are always fun to look at.
> 
> A good question here is whether this many-level scheme is better than to pick 
> something like a simple Lisp-like or OMeta-like language (e.g. it came from 
> Meta II, which is really simple) that can output machine code and simply hand 
> translate the first version into machine code.


Not to be pedantic, but I think it really depends what you mean by "better".

For FONC's goals, no doubt the most declarative, semantic-dense representations 
are the "best". These will often fall back on some sort of fixed points of 
meta-circularity.

>From a pedagogical viewpoint though, meta-circular programs always seems to 
>hurt my mind (in a good way) until my mind itself can steady on the 
>fixed-point. With the stepwise approach there is much less expressiveness at 
>each level but there is also never any "magic". Everything is quite procedural 
>and power is only gained by simple accretion:
1) pure assembly bits
2) labels
2) structured programming
3) function calls

Most new-comers are often mystified by the magic between the compiler's runtime 
environment (the program's static-ish environment) and the program's runtime. 
After you've done it yourself a few times you finally grok it. I wonder if it's 
similar here. I'm not saying that everyone will naturally re-discover 
McCarthy's lisp-in-lisp by just being exposed to the accretion method but it 
seems like a lisp-in-lisp is more digestible after having made a few "static" 
systems.

shawn


> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alan
> 
> From: Shawn Morel <[email protected]>
> To: Fundamentals of New Computing <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sat, April 9, 2011 3:37:03 PM
> Subject: [fonc] bootstrapping B
> 
> I don't recall seeing this posted before. A few layers of 386 raw op-code 
> bootstrapping successively more powerful environments (up to the point of 
> macros that do sys calls and things like 'get-token:')
> 
> There's something quite appealing about the minimalism of the linear approach 
> (on top of bare metal) compared to the more brain twisting 'bootstrap in C to 
> rewrite in the new environment.'
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/edmund.grimley-evans/bcompiler.html
> 
> cheers,
> shawn
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