Sorry, but I could not grasp the argument "that the fomentation around the European Portuguese issue seems to be perennial" is "clear evidence that the community within the Portuguese wikipedia has a very good handle on the issue." Does it mean that if a problem doesn't go away it's because it is well handled?
I'm glad someone considers addressing matters of one's language a pastime and salute the agreement that you don't have to know Portuguese to engage in such pastime. Everybody should have a hobby of some kind. Writing to a mailing list could be one. I do have other things to do, but this is so much more fun. Nice try that of mentioning Galician, but that is a controversial issue and I would not touch it with a ten foot pole. It would also make you terribly unpopular in a lot of Spanish circles of power. There might be a mistake in the statement that those two wikipedias relate to the Portuguese language grouping. I believe the non-controversial wording is Portuguese-Galician language grouping. I read with great interest the considerations about "how to discern the degree of apartness within the *many* Portuguese dialects", that it is "easy to weigh the pros and the cons [,of creating a European Portuguese only wikipedia] and come to a fair *evaluation* that it would be a very problematic "solution". I was very entertained by a "personal evaluation" and that someone of great authority in these matters doesn't "think a European Portuguese only wikipedia is a case where it is ideally justified." One must be really clever to reach all those conclusion so easily. I surely don't have an answer for that, myself, but would love to see, and I am willing to contribute to a serious study of the problem. Sincerely, Virgilio A. P. Machado At 14:44 23-03-2010, you wrote: >Virgilio A. P. Machado wrote: > > I don't see any evidence that "nobody outside the > > Portuguese community can see a problem" unless > > one personal opinion should be considered proof. > > > > The statement was not about anybody outside the > > Portuguese community seeing a problem, but that > > "the issue keeps popping up". The very fact that > > is being addressed here corroborates that > > statement. Examples of previous discussions were > > also provided spanning a period of five years. No > > evidence has been produced to the contrary, i.e., > > that the issue does not keep popping up. > > >There is also clear evidence that the community >within the Portuguese wikipedia has a very good >handle on the issue, for all that the fomentation >around the European Portuguese issue seems to be >perennial. > > > If "it all seems to be a lot of fuss about > > nothing" that might be because appearances can be > > deceiving and burring your head in the sand or > > looking the other way will not make any existing > > problems go away, although everybody is entitled > > to ignore them. That's a very common attitude > > when the problems are not at your doorstep, > > although there's always the danger that they will > > eventually get there. Again, the very fact that > > this discussion is taking place here is a symptom > > that there is a fuss about something. > > > > >To me it seems that the great majority of people >who are themselves on the Portuguese wikipedia >do not think raising this issue time and again is >a useful pastime. Thus the issue of whether you are >or are not Portuguese language speaking yourself, >seems to me a moot point. > > > No statements were made concerning the creation > > or not of a "two-wiki solution". It's nice to > > know that someone believes that "the wider > > Wikimedia community will never accept a two-wiki > > solution". Hopefully not everybody will have such > > a preconceived idea and keep an open mind about > > the specific needs of specific projects. Until > > the problems and needs are properly accessed it > > is premature to dismiss any alternative solution. > > > > >I'll agree that "two-wiki solution" in this connection >is very poor phrasing. Adding a European Portuguese >only wikipedia wouldn't be a solution, and it wouldn't >be "two-wiki", since I believe there currently exist >*at least* two wikipedias relating to the Portuguese >language grouping, namely Portuguese and Galician. > >The issue is really whether how to discern the degree >of apartness within the *many* Portuguese dialects, >including not only European and Brazilian but the >African, creole Portuguese etc, and which can not >reasonably be expected to be able to contribute >within the default Portuguese wikipedia. > >One does not need to dismiss a proposed solution, >to point out the inherent problems with it. And >creating a European Portuguese only wikipedia >would create many problems, of such weight, that >though not dismissing the concept as a theoretical >possibility, it is easy to weigh the pros and the cons, >and come to a fair *evaluation* that it would be a >very problematic "solution". > >My personal evaluation tends to be that an European >only wikipedia is not a good solution, though I am not >sure about the African Portuguese or the Creole Portuguese >cases -- purely because I have not at all studied >the issues with those. I would agree that there is still >perhaps too much resistance towards creating >separate wikipedias for creoles, dialects and the >like -- in the general case -- though I don't think a >European Portuguese only wikipedia is a case where >it is ideally justified. > > >Yours, > >Jussi-Ville Heiskanen > > >_______________________________________________ >foundation-l mailing list >[email protected] >Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Prof. Virgilio A. P. Machado [email protected] Engenharia Industrial http://web.archive.org/web/20070824105539/www.ipei.pt/GDEI/ DEMI/FCT/UNL Fax: 351-21-294-8546 or 21-294-8531 Universidade de Portugal or 351-21-295-4461 2829-516 Caparica Tel.: 351-21-294-8542 or 21-294-8567 PORTUGAL or 351-21-294-8300 or 21 294-8500 Ext.112-32 96-577-3726 Faculdade de Ciencias e Tecnologia/UNL (FCT/UNL) (Dr. Machado is Associate Professor of Industrial Engineering at the School of Sciences and Engineering/UNL of the University of Portugal) _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
