Hi, I can't agree more with John from what he stated in his answer. That's honest, that's true and that's straight from the deepest of his heart.
I have some problems with the way ricardo addressed the problem. Whether you're now a professor, a doctor, a student, an engineer or whatever, politeness should and must be always on the top of your communication. He stated: "I am sorry for being somewhat rude". Well, that's the least you can say... First off, although the statements he did in his reply were most probably correct (I don't have experience with this device I must say, so I can't judge on that), things could have said otherwise. Especially the "light threatening" with the "Italian laws" and "must refund" and so on really goes against the grain. I cite again: " At this point, I think there are only two possibilities: either, as the Italian law states, the problem is fully solved (by Acme, not by us) within a REASONABLE amount of time, or they will have to provide a full refund for all expenses we incurred, given that their product is not conforming to advertised specifications. And this means that we need a VERY FAST response from Acme. " Sorry to say, but that's a bit "over the edge"... If really necessary, such things should be taken off-line and discussed with the person(s) involved directly, not via an open forum. I have the honour to know John quite well now (not personally, hope this will come one day, but via Skype) and I know he's spending many, many (even nightly) hours on keeping the Fox SDK up and running. So, let's not forget this too please. It's because of the generosity of a limited amount of people that the whole community can benefit from such nice piece of hard- and software. Which is good, very good indeed! That is, after all, the purpose of open source software: everybody is invited to contribute. Well, if then something doesn't work as it should (or as it has been advertised, whatever), one should not start to use a certain tone to get the attention... My experience with Acme Systems? Well, nothing but excellent!!! I've also learned to know Sergio and Roberto and we've had many constructive communications/discussions with each other so far on topics I had problems with. Not that I'm a Linux expert (I'm by far not at the level of John, to be clear), but I've also added my (be it small) contribution to the community. I was having problems with the way the I2C driver was implemented. It was not working very well and was not reliable. In stead of starting to hammer on the boys that they should provide/release better software, I took the challenge on my own and changed a lot on the I2C driver. This to make it as good as possible and as reliable as possible. To prove you, ricardo, how generous they are: they were rewarding me with a nice present, something they really were not obliged to do!!! But they did, so to me this is the biggest proof you can have that they really DO CARE about their customers! This should stimulate others to do the same. Even the two students who have problems with the Wifi stick. I know their focus is put on something else, on their final project, but I've been through this all myself too. Life is not always sunshine, you (should) know... And I can guarantee you that I had more problems with the "side soft- and hardware" then with my own stuff when I created my thesis. I too had to spend many and many of unforeseen hours in debugging and repairing stuff that was supposed to be OK after we bought it. Reality, however, is sometimes not as "polished" as it should be, even in times where you in fact, well... have no time to spend on it. Keep in mind that later on, when stepping into the real world, lots of those situations will arise. As already said before, you must be prepared to fight things that were not foreseen. If you come into such situation, you have two options: 1. Either you complain to the manufacturer and then sit back and wait until a solution is provided on a silver plate 2. Or you try to be pro-active and cooperate with the manufacturer to get things solved as fast as possible. Well, from my experience (I'm in television business, writing software for high-end digital televisions) I can tell you that cooperating with -what we call- third parties is not always a "rose garden", if you know what I mean. I'm currently also in the struggle of getting some things to work fine, but I'm trying to cooperate as much as possible with that third party supplier to get things corrected iso starting to complain that this or that is not working sufficiently. And yes, we found already problems in their software, something that is absolutely not foreseen in plannings and so on. That's life, that's reality and you can't change this. Also at school, students should be aware that this is what they are awaiting, once stepping into the "real world"... One last thing, I cite again from the email of ricardo: "doesn't add much, so to speak, to Acme's reputation." Well, very recently, I had problems with my FoxBoard. The problems came out of the blue, I had no clue what was causing the problem. I contacted John, Sergio and Roberto (even on a SUNDAY AFTERNOON, while everybody else is sitting cosy together with family and friends) to ask for help about that. It took us quite a bit of time (well, 4-5 days is not that much also) to get things solved (and honesty obeys me to say that in the end it was my own really stupid mistake, from which I learned a lot). But in the mean time, they were even proposing me to send back my FoxBoard and replace it with a completely new board AT NO COSTS (apart from the p&p, of course), because we started to think it was the hardware, not the software. Well, if you call something "generous", that's one of the nicest examples I've seen in my life. Again, they didn't HAVE to do that, but they were WILLING to do that. This way, they showed again their commitment to the customers/community. Conclusion: let's be friendly with each other, help each other as much as you can (the forum is a proof of this, IMHO) and --especially-- RESPECT WHAT OTHERS DO FOR YOU (even mostly in their free time)! My 2ct. Best rgds, --Geert --- In [email protected], John Crispin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > * i have taken a long time to think about what to say and how to say > it so please everyone read it fully. If anyone would like to comment > on the matter you are invited to do so, from the bottom of my heart * > > dear ricardo, > > i am john crispin, the maintainer of the sdk toolchain. When i started > using the foxboard, when they were first released, the sdk came > straight from Axis in sweden (the producer of the chip). it was > missing a lot of drivers (like wifi) and packages (like wireless > tools), that i added to the sdk using what was previously know as the > "phrozen patch" and is now known as the FoxSDK. Being an OpenSource > developer, i did this fully in my spare time, contributing to the > community of nice people, just for the fun and because i have the > knowledge to do so. All the code in the sdk is under the GPLv1/v2 > license with the clauses probably known to you (but we will come back > to this later in the mail). > > *** hence this statement is purely personal and not an official > Acmesystems statement. They will contact you directly very soon *** > > Let me respond now to the interesting mail that you send to the list > > > Being deeply involved in Marco's and Cristian's work (I am their > > supervisor), I regret to say that the whole matter is being treated in a > > completely wrong way. The problem is not wether kernel 2.4 is more or > > less stable than 2.6 as far as wireless is concerned: the point is that, > > on Acme's website, the Foxboard is advertised as WORKING with wi-fi, and > > specifically with that particular USB stick (the DWL G122). > > We therefore bought the device FROM THEM trusting the ad, and later > > discovering that > > You are correct, that on the acme site it is stated that the stick is > supported. Form my point of view as a developer it does work. There > are known issues that the 2.6.15 support of the usb host driver > provided by the cpu manufacturer has problems under heavy load. I did > respond very quickly to the bug report issued by your students, > however i regret to haver sent only a short mail. The reason for this > is that the issue has been reported lots and lots and lots on this > list and it has also been announced just as often that a fix is being > worked on. As i said i do the developement of the SDK in my free time > and under GPL, so some times it takes a bit longer to have a fix fully > working and tested. I do however agree with you that the information > on the website is not complete, it states that the wifi stick works, > however with the limitations i explained above. > > > >>>>> yes this is a known problem > > > > and that > > > >>>>> unfortunatley the issue will not be resolved until we > >>>>> have 2.6.19 > > > > As i said i am working on a fix, there will be a lot of new software > using a new release, which is a complete rework of the code base, > adding more new features than most would dream of. With the upcoming > release i will prove once again that the community means alot to me > personally, otherwise i would not invest hundreds of "free" hours into > the support. I am in constant contact with a lot of users, reachable > via skype, icq and even telphone, giving free support where i can, but > i am not a magician and 100 mips is only 100 mips. making usb stable > on 2.4 was hard work and so will the part of making it stable on 2.6. > However as i said it does take its time. > > > > At this point, I think there are only two possibilities: either, as the > > Italian law states, the problem is fully solved (by Acme, not by us) > > within a REASONABLE amount of time, or they will have to provide a full > > refund for all expenses we incurred, given that their product is not > > conforming to advertised specifications. And this means that we need a > > VERY FAST response from Acme. > I am from germany, so i have no idea of the italian law. But what do > you understand as a very fast response and reasonable amount of time ? > i spoke to Mr. Asquini - Co-Founder of Acmesystems SRL. today to > discuss your e-mail, he will contact you directly on friday 15.june. > as i stated before, in my opinion the producer is "conforming to > advertised specifications" just that there are known issues when using > webcam+wifi > > > I am sorry for being somewhat rude, but we are all wasting precious > > research time on a trivial problem that someone else claimed did not > > exist. > dont worry, i am sure you took as much time as me to think about the > words said. And rest assured you REALLY said them clear enough. > > now for the really shoking part > > > doesn't add much, so to speak, to Acme's reputation. > I have meet the guys from acme on several occasions and i have only > rarely meet such nice supportive people. I have worked with linux > hardware for many years now and the foxboard is by far the most fun i > ever had with any embedded device. It has been taken from the whole > linux community with a lot of anticipation and joy. I have seen lots > and lots of great project using the fox, from industry automation, > train controls, roborts, toy helicopters, routers, print servers, ... > (i have not enough time to give you a full list, but believe me it is > long). Up to know you are the first person i have come across that is > so unhappy with his fox in the 2 years that i have been using it. > especially as the problem is well documented in the mailing list (and > yes i know it should be noted on the website, which was added just 2 > minutes ago). So basically your statement implying Acme has a bad > reputation is shrudely false. I grant you your own opinion however, i > just believe it is totally none representative from an academic point > of view. > > > Finally i would like to point out to you the following. The device you > are trying to use runs linux. By using the software you implictly > accept the GPL which clearly states the following text > > --- quote --- > This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, > but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the > GNU General Public License for more details. > --- quote --- > > thanks, > John >
