Very sorry to have offended you. Words do have their limitations. -- I've never, however, claimed to be the least bit visionary (and am most certainly not). And neither do I align myself with any person or any group of people in particular. You are a filmmaker, however, and I am not. So this is your space, not mine, and I respectfully bow out -- and do wish you well with all your creative work.
Marilyn Brakhage From: "mary billyou" <[email protected]> To: "Experimental Film Discussion List" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2022 1:17:11 PM Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Barbara Hammer & Women I Love Any civil discussion needs reflection before sending – it must be said again. Words can hurt. This is the second time I've come across not just insensitivity but outright callousness here, and yes homophobia. We should be attentive to these moments because their intent is to shut people down and stop creativity. The level of disregard for an audience – anonymous though we may be – unfortunately shows the limits of your imagination. It also reveals what a boys club you think this scene still is. It would be much more "visionary" of you to consider that there might be possibilities out there of which you are not aware. Mary On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 2:53 PM MARILYN BRAKHAGE < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > wrote: Yes, I completely agree with you, that activism has been and is a necessary path to justice -- which is why I said "at some point." But I also think that people can be rebuked without necessarily being cast out, at least in some places. Unfortunately, we are, all of us, at times put in the position of 'having to explain things that shouldn't need explaining,' or are categorized or characterized unjustly, or misrepresented, misunderstood, or devalued. I certainly agree that you should speak up for yourself and others when you need to, absolutely. And it was certainly an offensive remark. But it was also alluding to (and I take it, trying to diminish the value of) her filmmaking practice, and perhaps that is the context in which it would be best addressed in this space? And to Dominic: "Anarchists Unite": that's very funny; I like that. Marilyn From: "Anna Briggs" < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > To: "Experimental Film Discussion List" < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2022 7:23:41 AM Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Barbara Hammer & Women I Love Hello again, To my mind, whatever comments Barbara might have made during her life or whatever one might think of the quality of her work, a professional community in this day and age should never tolerate expressions that are clearly discriminatory, derogatory and that diminish the humanity of people and marginalized communities. I am a member of several professional organizations, online groups and membership organizations, and the general rule is always that if someone uses such language they are permanently banned. Their feelings and right to express such language are considered less important than the humanity of all the members of the community, the necessity to feel safe and respected within it and the overall standards that we should hold in our interactions towards one another. In 2022 people can't feign to ignore basic principles of equality and discrimination. I personally can guarantee I have never uttered an expression that is so contemptuous and hurtful (not just towards one woman but towards a whole group, because the insult is caracterized by her belonging to a marginalized community). Suggesting that marginalized communities should simply 'take the high road' or 'turn the other cheek', ignore or pretend that reality isn't what it is, is profoundly and unequivocally wrong. History has shown that activism, and demanding equality and respect, has always been the only path to justice. Even though everyday marginalized people do have to explain things that shouldn't need explaining, and have to ignore abuse that shouldn't be ignored, doesn't make it right and shouldn't be seen as 'the best way'. Thanks, Anna Briggs [ https://www.mipops.org/aboutus/ | https://www.mipops.org/aboutus/ ] On Sat, 10 Sept 2022 at 09:02, MARILYN BRAKHAGE < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > wrote: BQ_BEGIN On the other hand (since the original post contained a Brakhage reference), if someone was lauding Brakhage's films on sex and sexuality (not his most interesting work, in my opinion) and someone else referred to him as "some dead heterosexual guy" (which he is -- and he's certainly been called worse), and told that first person to "get a girlfriend and get a life," I don't think I would particularly care. It would not be the most astute and articulate film criticism; but the point would be made, that the critiquing person felt that the work was being overrated, and for questionable reasons. Okay. Someone else might respond with a consideration of the possible value of the work, or of some other work by that filmmaker. (Or not.) ...Regardless, though, perhaps the main point in the present case is that a public listserv was not really the best place for Bruce's flippant remark to a friend. But seriously, people: have none of you ever made an ill-informed, inappropriate, insensitive, or out-of-place remark? Ever? And if you ever did, should you have been banished for it? ... I have to say, BTW, that the one and only time I met Barbara Hammer, she made what I thought was a very ignorant and inappropriate remark -- about not normally expecting "a wife" to have anything interesting to say. I did not, however, think she should be banished for it. I do understand that you are defending a marginalized community. But I've always been of the opinion that, at some point, the best way not to be marginalized is simply to act as if you are not. (And everybody is entitled to their opinion, however correct or incorrect it may be.) Why not respond to Bruce Cooper with an argument as to why you think he is wrong about the significance of Hammer's work? Then his dismissive remark would be effectively countered. (Or, on the other hand, ignore it as not worth responding to. Or, just call him out for being disrespectful, and then move on.) Marilyn Brakhage From: "Sarah Kolberg" < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > To: "Experimental Film Discussion List" < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > Sent: Friday, September 9, 2022 9:16:13 PM Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Barbara Hammer & Women I Love I concur with Anna, Mariah, and Dinorah (and whomever else agrees that I may have missed). If it is the case that Bruce and Eric are indeed friends, such that Eric wouldn’t be offended by that comment or the get a life get a girlfriend comment, then he should have simply emailed that snark directly to Eric. As Anna notes, there’s enough homophobic bs on the internet without it being here too – ESPECIALLY about a pioneering lesbian filmmaker who helped pave the way for other queer artists and queer films to be ‘out of the closet’ (so to speak) ~ sarah From: Frameworks < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > On Behalf Of Dinorah de Jesús Rodriguez Sent: Friday, September 9, 2022 4:45 PM To: Experimental Film Discussion List < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Barbara Hammer & Women I Love not to mention that on an Experimental Film Discussion List he used this horrific & offensive phrase to refer to none other than Barbara Hammer. I mean... enjoy today... Dinorah de Jesús Rodríguez Filmmaker, Artist, Writer [ https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsolislandmediaworks.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cskolberg%40buffalo.edu%7C4ba482aeb05b45f6459508da92a4574c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637983532919274094%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zFYzDwjmCst7BeYRT0ikWS5xPAQ6qcZfvJVXbKBYHtM%3D&reserved=0 | solislandmediaworks.com ] On Fri, Sep 9, 2022 at 4:26 PM mariah garnett < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > wrote: BQ_BEGIN As some future dead lesbian I support Anna’s proposal. BQ_BEGIN On Sep 9, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Anna Briggs < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > wrote: BQ_BEGIN Hello all, I also hadn't seen this exchange over the summer. I think (and hope most people in this community would agree) that moderating the comments of someone using expressions such as 'some dead lesbian' is insufficient, and that such a person should be permanently removed as a member of this list. There are unfortunately plenty of other places on the internet where people can go and spew homophobic bilge. Thank you, Anna Briggs [ https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mipops.org%2Faboutus%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cskolberg%40buffalo.edu%7C4ba482aeb05b45f6459508da92a4574c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637983532919274094%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=v2iQOwL%2BHI1HP9UjAAYncSqrEAPB%2BUnbLCHtF0UaeYk%3D&reserved=0 | https://www.mipops.org/aboutus/ ] On Fri, 9 Sept 2022 at 20:43, Ж < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > wrote: BQ_BEGIN Hi all! Just contextualizing: Best! Ж // [ https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkkinema.com.br%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cskolberg%40buffalo.edu%7C4ba482aeb05b45f6459508da92a4574c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637983532919274094%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=V%2F85FM1F6VQeOSIkkl4EFynvoUfmQOAv8g6WOfTAjPs%3D&reserved=0 | kkinema.com.br ] // [ https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftextodecinema.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cskolberg%40buffalo.edu%7C4ba482aeb05b45f6459508da92a4574c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637983532919274094%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6%2Fmrvdh1D8rQqnkA7X5u0ygM2NEMXss4Qp%2Bby82h1us%3D&reserved=0 | textodecinema.com ] // Em sex., 9 de set. de 2022 às 13:18, Bruce Cooper < [ mailto:[email protected] | [email protected] ] > escreveu: BQ_BEGIN Excuse me, a personal attack on Eric Theise? Eric is a friend of mine from SF a long time back in the 1990s. I would appreciate it if people who don't know me (or met me once or twice 20 years ago) would refrain from commenting.about me. 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