Liam, WordTsar looks indeed „funny“ on my iMac. Thx for pointing it out.
Regarding Raskin’s Editor: There are builds for Windows, Mac and Linux: https://web.archive.org/web/20080224100142/http://rchi.raskincenter.org/index.php?title=Download A recent Tribute to his ZOOM World is nice to try out here: http://www.raskinformac.com/#features … so it hasn’t fallen completely into oblivion. One finds the story all over the net when searching for example: Enso, Ubiquity, Archy, THE SWYFT CARD His son apparently tried for a while to push forward on this, but it all stopped at some point. I think this is because it works nice for single users, small data sets with text and so on, but not in larger contexts, especially multiplex and graphics content. - Thomas > Am 07.05.2021 um 23:11 schrieb Liam Proven <[email protected]>: > > On Fri, 7 May 2021 at 18:29, Thomas Desi <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Maybe those legacy editors are still around in discussion because of their >> „paradigmas“ they created >> around editing text on a computer. > > Well, yes. > >> Editor „Brief“ refers maybe besides other features to „incremental“ Home / >> End Keys (e.g. first HOME press moves caret to Start-Of-Line, a second press >> moves the caret a line up, till Start-of-File) or more in general to key >> commands which became models for period of time for many editors. > > Aha! Interesting. I have not heard of that before. > >> Hard to say one is better then the other. We only became „locked into“ a >> system in the last 50 years. > > Very true. > > But there is real value in having a near-universal system. IBM CUA > came in at the end of the DOS era, but has persisted in some forms... > Windows, all the mainstream xNix desktops, OS/2, and even Mac OS X hew > to it to some degree. OS X more than Classic MacOS. > > It's partly why I do not use Vim or Emacs. I learned editors in the > early 1980s, when every one was totally different and many computers > had multiple different editors. I was au fait with dozens and switched > easily. > > CUA came as a huge relief; after it, one model and one UI worked everywhere. > > I don't care _how_ much editing power Vim or Emacs may have; they do > not conform to the dominant UI of the last 35+ years, and as such, I > am not interested in learning yet another UI. I will use the one that > works in Notepad, Gedit, Leafpad, Mousepad, Kate, Geany, Text Edit, > EDIT.EXE, EDITOR.EXE, etc. etc. > >> So each and every text editor (especially those) provokes a quasi-religious >> attitude of the user >> towards the computer and its behaviour. > > Exactly so, yes. > >> Adding pull-down menues or calling the menue by pressing F10 or F1 for Help… >> Most of these conventions are gone because of the ubiquity of the mouse or >> touchpad. > > True. > >> Printing, which has been such a killer issue, has become IMHO much less >> important lately, as most text feed into the web (blogs) or Emails. PDF as >> the main currency. Word’s doc format unfortunately is asked nearly in every >> domain as the common denominator. Be green - use your screen! > > True. > >> Designing a *complete* system for editing text must include the actual >> keyboard layout, dedicated keys, the pointing device, the editor software >> (yeah), and the… operating system. All need to finally feed into the >> „ergonomic“ aspect (key-chording in legacy Emacs can in bad cases lead to >> injury of the hands), free the unnecessary mental load (editing prose in >> vi/vim having in mind which mode one is in, is mindf**k). The two paradigma >> Emacs/Vi(m) are rather similar in contrast to the ACME and SAM editors, >> using the three button mouse. > > Agreed. > >> And just to mention it, there once was Jef Raskin's „Canon Cat“. His >> paradigma of „all is text“ (like Rob Pike’s ACME?) but denying the use of >> the mouse in favour of a copyrighted „Leap“ key, which basically is Emacs’ >> search-command. Gaining seconds but asking the user to retype typos in order >> to move the caret to that spot. It is amazing how these geniuses were >> somewhat wrong in predicting the future despite the objective superiority of >> their concepts. Raskin’s work (Swyft card, THE, ARCHY) dove into oblivion. > > Ha! As I read your message, I thought of the Cat. > > I wish someone would do a clone of its UI using normal PC keyboards > and (say) Emacs as its base. It was an inspired design. >> >> Rob Pike in 1991 wrote an article ( >> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/1st_edition/help/help.pdf ) which is still worth >> reading. Let me quote: "Where will we be ten years from now? CRT’s will be a >> thing of the past, multimedia will no longer be a buzzword, pen-based and >> voice input will be everywhere, and university students will still be >> editing with emacs. Pens and touchscreens are too low-bandwidth for real >> interaction; voice will probably also turn out to be inadequate. (Anyway, >> who would want to work in an environment surrounded by people talking to >> their computers?) Mice are sure to be with us a while longer, so we should >> learn how to use them well.“ >> >> Did he say „ten years“? 1991 is now thirty years ago… > > :-/ > >> He didn’t speak about tablets/smartphones - but have you tried working with >> text editing on a touch-screen? Orrrgh. > > Oh my yes. > >> Today one can easily realize one’s own design of a keyboard, or have extra >> special macro keyboards, or pointing devices like roller mouse, trackpad, >> magic mouse etc. >> Still the software lacks enormously, especially for text editing in prose. >> Sound’s pretensiously silly, I know. >> But, Keyboard Commands seem for many people old fashioned and awkward in >> Text editing, navigating, working with the system. It’s all absurdly >> bloated, even the computer system is enormous. > > I agree again. We are going backwards nowadays. > >> Looking back at those thoughts, designs and ideas of thirty+ years ago, >> using DOS, trying out maybe Plan9 (hmm…?) is worthwhile to get an idea that >> there is more to computing than windows, linux or MacOS, more than MS-Word. >> This can only achieved if the software enters a status of „oldtimer“, like >> with cars in Europe, where after a while the whole issue of individual >> rights might of design ideas become „open source“ out of public interest. >> This might be very Un-American, right, I am writing from an European >> perspective. > > I don't know if you know, but Plan 9 and Acme, Rio etc. were inspired > by an earlier OS, called Oberon. It is still around, runs on modern PC > hardware, is FOSS, and is astonishingly small and fast. > > http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/ > > -- > Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: [email protected] – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: [email protected] > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > > > _______________________________________________ > Freedos-user mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user _______________________________________________ Freedos-user mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
