Exactly! The principle was developed and is presently accepted for the ideal conditions for which measurement is most simply defined, not a real world. In the real world the same physical principle operates, but we have not found a way to make clear statements about it yet. I'm proposing that this is a good place to start finding out how to establish reliable statements about physical processes in their full generality. One possible line of demonstrating general statements about real systems, for example, might be to exhaust the imagination of people offering material exceptions. Material exceptions would need to invalidate or narrow the generality of the rule. Non-material exceptions would tend to reinforce the rule by discrediting a class of possible avenues for other possible exceptions. Say you state the 'real 2nd law' as meaning that "available new efficiencies in any physical process must be either temporary, or tend toward zero without reducing waste toward zero". In this case, exceptions would need to propose a practical avenue to successively improving the physical efficiency of some process without limit. One way to invalidated many apparent exceptions to the rule would be to show that the proposal is for inherently limited or temporary new efficiencies. Another way is to show that the proposal is for imaginary efficiencies, and not so supportable by physical evidence. To be a meaningful exception it would also need to appear to invalidate or significantly alter the general rule, and not just create some ambiguity of interpretation. I think with experience, this can actually become a fairly efficient procedure. It might appear that it reduces how the ideal principles of physics apply to the real general world of physical processes to little more than sign, + & - agreements. I think we all know a good example of where that has been quite useful, though, in the form of constructing yes & no branch patterns in logic. The approach still includes the defect of 'proving' things by finding a failure to imagine contradictions... a perennial flaw underlying much faulty reasoning. Still, the big gain is that it would at least help connect the scientific domain in which uncertainties are more clearly defined with the real world where they're not. Does that make sense?
Phil Henshaw ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/> -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Holmes Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:24 AM To: the Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bigger plans, bigger little mistakes Phil, I don't think that your reliance on the second law is correct. The Clausius statement of the 2nd law is: The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium. The earth isn't an isolated system: the sun inputs energy. So I don't think you can use the 2nd law. Robert On 4/29/07, Phil Henshaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Or somewhat equivalently, getting us to pay carbon taxes on what we consume... To do that we'd need some way guess the carbon content (and other earth insults) for products the manufacturer didn't provide verifiable data for... and just as necessary, some believable plan for using the money collected. *But* that too would still provide only temporary relief!! The co2/$ ratio for total economic product (economic efficiency) can only be reduced toward a positive limit and not toward zero (real 2nd law). Phil Henshaw ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] explorations: www.synapse9.com
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