Thanks, Russell, Does anybody in the Mother Church have a copy s/he could bring to Friday's Meeting????
Nick > [Original Message] > From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> > Date: 11/29/2007 1:10:20 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen > > Try http://www3.vcu.edu/complex/ > > However, you'll probably find it easier to borrow one of Rosen's books > from the library and read that, rather than to try to understand what > others make of him. It's sort of the reverse of David Bohm... > > Cheers > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 11:46:55AM -0700, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > Glen > > , > > > > Everybody but me seems to know what Robert Rosen work you are referring to. > > If I apologize for being an ill-educated bounder, could you provide me with > > a netref or two to work with? > > > > I apologize. > > > > Nick > > > > (if you give me the reference, will that be an instance of causality?) > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Date: 11/28/2007 10:04:16 AM > > > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 53, Issue 25 > > > > > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > > > [email protected] > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM and > > > Causality) (Nicholas Thompson) > > > 2. [Fwd: New AAAI Conference - ICWSM 2008] (Robert Cordingley) > > > 3. Re: Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM and > > > Causality) (Robert Cordingley) > > > 4. Re: Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM and > > > Causality) (Glen E. P. Ropella) > > > 5. some thoughts on the educational aspect of 632 (Prof David West) > > > 6. Re: Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM > > > andCausality) (Nicholas Thompson) > > > 7. one laptop per child (Marcus G. Daniels) > > > 8. Re: one laptop per child (Carl Tollander) > > > 9. Re: one laptop per child (Alfredo Covaleda) > > > 10. My employer in the news (Douglas Roberts) > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:22:54 -0700 > > > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM and > > > Causality) > > > To: [email protected] > > > Cc: echarles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > > All, > > > > > > I confess I have not followed the mathematical side of this discussion > > into > > > the blue underlined stuff. Nor do I claim to understand all of the plain > > > text. > > > > > > However, I am tempted by the idea of a mathematical formalization of > > > "natural design". Here is the argument: What EVERYBODY --from the most > > > dyed in the wool Natural Theologist to the most flaming Dawkinsian -- > > > agrees on is that there is some property of natural objects which we might > > > roughly call their designedness. Tremendous confusion has been sewn by > > > biologists by confusing that property -- whatever it might be -- with the > > > CAUSES of that property, variously God or Natural selection, or > > > what-have-you. So much of what passes for causal explanation in biology > > > is actually description of the "adaptation relation" or what I call, just > > > to be a trouble-maker, "natural design". > > > > > > It seems to me that you mathematicians could do a great deal for biology > > by > > > putting your minds to a formalization of "natural design". It would put > > > Darwin's theory -- "natural selection begets natural design" out of the > > > reach of tautology once and for all. What I am looking for here is a > > > mathematical formalization of the relations --hierarchy of relations, I > > > would suppose -- that leads to attributions of "designedness". Assuming > > > that one had put a computer on a British Survey Vessel and sent it round > > > the world for five years looking at the creatures and their surroundings, > > > what is the mathematical description of the relation that would have to be > > > obtained before the computer would come home saying that creatures were > > > designed (and rocks weren't). Then -- and only then -- are we in a > > > position to ask the question, "is natural selection the best explanation > > > for this property. > > > > > > My supposition is that ALL current theories will not survive such an > > > analysis. Indeed, we may need a new metaphor altogether. Many of you > > will > > > be familiar with the notion of fitness landscape. For intuitive purposes, > > > let me turn the landscape upside down, so its peaks are chasms and its > > > valleys are peaks. Now, drop a ball at random into the upside down > > > landscape. Assuming that the landscape is rigid, the ball will roll > > around > > > until it finds a local minimum. If you put some jitter in the rolling, it > > > might, depending on the size of the jitter and the roughness of the > > > landscape, find the absolute minimum. But all of this assumes that the > > > ball has no effect on the landscape! If we turn the landscape into a > > > semi-rigid net so that the ball deforms the landscape as it rolls through > > > it, then we have a much better metaphor for the relation between an > > > organism's design and the environment in which it is operating. Some > > > organisms -- weedy species -- cause the environment to rise under their > > > feet, so to speak, so they are constantly driven out of whatever valley > > > they settle in; Other organisms modify the environment in their favor and > > > in effect, dig their way into a pit in the landscape. If the ball > > > representing such organisms has inadequate jitter or the landscape is not > > > sufficiently springy, such an organism can dig its way into a pit and > > then > > > go extinct. > > > > > > In short we need a dynamical theory. But such a theory will never happen > > > until we have a sufficiently subtle (and verbalizable) mathematical > > > formalization of the momentary relation between organisms and their > > > environments that we are trying to explain. Get at it, you > > > mathematicians!!!! > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > D'Espagnat gives a very biased view of QM. For a critical view of the > > > > book see for instance > > > > > > > > Esfeld, Michael > > > > Review of "Bernard d'Espagnat, On physics and philosophy, Princeton: > > > > Princeton University Press 2006", Studies in History and Philosophy of > > > > Modern Physics 38B (2007), pp. 989-992 > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/philo/shared/DocsPerso/EsfeldMichael/2007/Esp > > > agnat-SHPMP07.pdf > > > > > > > > Gus Koehler wrote: > > > > > Bernard D'Espagnat, practicing and well know physicist, in his 2006 On > > > > > Physics and Philosophy makes the following points based on > > contemporary > > > > > limits that nature has imposed us via quantum mechanics: > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > G?nther > > > > > > > > -- > > > > G?nther Greindl > > > > Department of Philosophy of Science > > > > University of Vienna > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://www.univie.ac.at/Wissenschaftstheorie/ > > > > > > > > Blog: http://dao.complexitystudies.org/ > > > > Site: http://www.complexitystudies.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 5 > > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:05:38 +0000 > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality > > > > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > <1164569392-1196172318-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1644186245- > > > @bxe010.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > > > > > > Glen, > > > > Nearly all you say fits closely with my approach, except the word 'any' > > > in the following quote. > > > > > > > > " To the contrary, I assume every actual system has an inherent > > > > "hierarchicability" (following the word "extensibility") with respect to > > > > any observer(s). In other words, a system can be projected onto any > > > > ordering, depending on the attributes imputed by the projection." > > > > > > > > If you insert 'an' there instead, the combination of the possible and > > > discovered orderings will reveal an image of other things. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Glen E. P. Ropella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:51:12 > > > > To:The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > <[email protected]> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality > > > > > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > > > G?nther Greindl on 11/21/2007 04:48 PM: > > > > > So you probably won't even support sup/inf hierarchy, I gather; I'm > > no > > > > > Relativity pundit - do you think that follows from SR or is it a > > > > > philosophical view? > > > > > > > > It's somewhere in between. But I don't derive the principle from SR. I > > > > derive it from everyday experience. I tend to believe that any measure > > > > (including relative ones like ordering and sup/inf) are mere aspects of > > > > the underlying relations. So, it's not that I don't support hierarchy. > > > > To the contrary, I assume every actual system has an inherent > > > > "hierarchicability" (following the word "extensibility") with respect to > > > > any observer(s). In other words, a system can be projected onto any > > > > ordering, depending on the attributes imputed by the projection. > > > > > > > > No single ordering will tell us much about the system because (assuming > > > > it's accurate) it only shows us one aspect (interpretation, usage) of > > > > the system. In order to make a claim that we've identified a > > > > cause-effect graph, we have to make several (in some cases infinite) > > > > projections based on various imputed attributes. > > > > > > > > >> Such distinctions do NOT require one to consider [in]determinism. > > But, > > > > >> they do require one to consider historical accumulation and > > > canalization > > > > >> of causes, i.e. where and how ignorance (particularly of "negligible" > > > > >> influences e.g. events very FAR away in space or time) affects > > > causality. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I see what you mean - but just to be careful with terminology: I > > > > > guess you mean "affects the process under investigation causally" and > > > > > not "affects causality" (last two words above paragraph) > > > > > Former interpretation: we agree. Latter interpretation: we should > > > > > discuss ;-)) > > > > > > > > Hmmm. At first blush, I'd say I agree with _both_ phrasings. I'd say > > > > (weakly) that ignorance -affects the process under investigation > > > > causally-. And I'd say (strongly) that ignorance -affects causality-. > > > > How do those phrases make a difference to you? > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com > > > > The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly > > > > enforced. -- Frank Zappa > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > > > > > > > iD8DBQFHSrMwZeB+vOTnLkoRAnBEAKDUVstCXsAVcclg8ASwwkT7B3peXACeLKzm > > > > uExfuxs71G/8vLHcUXzu2fM= > > > > =02+D > > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 6 > > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:01:38 -0800 > > > > From: "Glen E. P. Ropella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality > > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 11/27/2007 06:05 AM: > > > > > Nearly all you say fits closely with my approach, except the word > > > > > 'any' in the following quote. > > > > > > > > > > "To the contrary, I assume every actual system has an inherent > > > > > 'hierarchicability' (following the word 'extensibility') with respect > > > > > to any observer(s). In other words, a system can be projected onto > > > > > any ordering, depending on the attributes imputed by the projection." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you insert 'an' there instead, the combination of the possible and > > > > > discovered orderings will reveal an image of other things. > > > > > > > > Good point. I was just thinking this over as I read Esfeld's review > > > > (thanks G?nther). On the one hand, the system can be projected onto > > > > _any_ ordering. But, as I think you're pointing out, some orderings > > > > will be a close fit ("natural") and others will be like putting a square > > > > peg into a round hole. So, some projections will work better than > > > > others. (I have to qualify that with "for a particular purpose" > > > > however. ;-) And the projections that work best provide a better > > > > measure of the system than others (for that particular purpose). > > > > > > > > The part of Esfeld's review that got me thinking this way was the idea > > > > that nonseparability and holism do not necessarily imply that we cannot > > > > understand a system. Similarly, the "hierarchicability" concept I used > > > > is not intended to imply that all imputations of hierarchy/order are > > > > equally [use|meaning]ful. > > > > > > > > Another thought that keeps ricocheting around in my head is the problem > > > > of my use of the word "ignorance". My usage of the word is often > > > > challenged; but, I keep using it anyway. [grin] I'm stubborn. But, by > > > > "ignorance", I don't _merely_ mean "lack of knowledge" of a given person > > > > or a set of people. It also means the act or possibility of some > > > > influence (element of cause) being negligible ... or marginalized. This > > > > semantic hair splitting comes up in the Esfeld review, too, when he > > says: > > > > > > > > "In none of these interpretations is any link from nonseparability and > > > > holism to our ignorance of what nature is in itself." > > > > > > > > If I use my definition of "ignorance", then nonseparability and holism > > > > _do_ imply that a form of ignorance (i.e. the marginalization of > > > > particular influences) always obtains. Because we cannot know or > > > > understand _everything_... because our models, by definition, cannot > > > > ever be completely accurate, we _must_ consider some parts negligible. > > > > (And by "we", I mean "any bounded entity that uses transduction across > > > > that boundary to understand its environment" ... e.g. trees, ants, > > > > cells, humans, etc.) > > > > > > > > In the case of complex cause, we can make multiple projections into > > > > various orderings and select the ones that work best (for a particular > > > > purpose). By such selection we can _approach_ an accurate understanding > > > > of the system; but it is a limit process. > > > > > > > > - -- > > > > glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com > > > > There is nothing as permanent as a temporary government program. -- > > > > Milton Friedman > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > > > > > > > iD8DBQFHTDFSZeB+vOTnLkoRAkIkAJ9mrSUXXLc6xlRU9Z/Mi7IyDT6kWQCg40pi > > > > AQ+O5hTPgb73a/9/ZrKBfio= > > > > =WfS3 > > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 7 > > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:55:08 -0800 > > > > From: "Gus Koehler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is mathematical pattern the theory of everything? > > > > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > > Thank you for drawing this excellent review to our attention. > > References > > > to > > > > differing views from D'Espaganat is very helpful. In any case, the > > review > > > > does not negate my essential point but only adds to it, and that is the > > > > fundamental difficulties with trying to establish some foundation for > > > > realism given quantum mechanics. These implications need to be brought > > > > forward in the Friam discussion. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Gus > > > > Gus Koehler, Ph.D. > > > > President and Principal > > > > Time Structures, Inc. > > > > 1545 University Ave. > > > > Sacramento, CA 95825 > > > > 916-564-8683, Fax: 916-564-7895 > > > > Cell: 916-716-1740 > > > > www.timestructures.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > Behalf > > > > Of G?nther Greindl > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:27 AM > > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is mathematical pattern the theory of everything? > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > D'Espagnat gives a very biased view of QM. For a critical view of the > > book > > > > see for instance > > > > > > > > Esfeld, Michael > > > > Review of "Bernard d'Espagnat, On physics and philosophy, Princeton: > > > > Princeton University Press 2006", Studies in History and Philosophy of > > > > Modern Physics 38B (2007), pp. 989-992 > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/philo/shared/DocsPerso/EsfeldMichael/2007/Esp > > > > agnat-SHPMP07.pdf > > > > > > > > Gus Koehler wrote: > > > > > Bernard D'Espagnat, practicing and well know physicist, in his 2006 > > On > > > > > Physics and Philosophy makes the following points based on > > > > > contemporary limits that nature has imposed us via quantum mechanics: > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > G?nther > > > > > > > > -- > > > > G?nther Greindl > > > > Department of Philosophy of Science > > > > University of Vienna > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://www.univie.ac.at/Wissenschaftstheorie/ > > > > > > > > Blog: http://dao.complexitystudies.org/ > > > > Site: http://www.complexitystudies.org > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, > > > > unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Friam mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > > > > > > > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 53, Issue 24 > > > > ************************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:50:54 -0600 > > > From: Robert Cordingley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] [Fwd: New AAAI Conference - ICWSM 2008] > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > > > Some on this list may find the following announcement of interest.. > > > Thanks > > > Robert Cordingley > > > > > > ************************************ > > > ICWSM 2008 > > > Papers Due: Monday, December 3, 2007 > > > ************************************ > > > > > > Dear AAAI Members, > > > > > > I am delighted to announce that AAAI has welcomed a new conference to its > > ranks -- the International Conference on Weblogs and Social Media. ICWSM, > > which grew out of a series of workshops and a very successful 2006 AAAI > > spring symposium, launched its inaugural conference in 2007. It has now > > forged a formal alliance with AAAI for 2008 and beyond. > > > > > > ICWSM 2008 will be held in Seattle, Washington at the Seattle Hilton, > > March 31 -- April 3. The conference will bring together academic and > > industrial practitioners to present and to discuss new research, > > applications, thoughts and ideas that are shaping the future of social > > media analysis. The conference aims to bring together researchers from > > different subject areas including computer science, linguistics, > > psychology, statistics, sociology, multimedia and semantic web technologies. > > > > > > Please note the following important upcoming deadlines: > > > > > > * Paper Submission: December 3, 2007 > > > * Tutorial Proposals: December 3, 2007 > > > * Poster/Demo Submission: January 6, 2008 > > > > > > For complete submission details, please see http://www.icwsm.org/2008/. > > > > > > An impressive line-up of invited speakers will be included in the 2008 > > program, including Bernardo A. Huberman (HP Labs), who will speak on > > "Social Dynamics in the Age of the Web;" David Sifry (Founder, Technorati, > > Sputnik, and Linuxcare); and Brad Fitzpatrick (LiverJournal Founder). In > > addition, two tutorials are planned, including "Subjectivity and Sentiment > > Analysis" by Jan Wiebe (University of Pittsburgh) and "Graph Mining > > Techniques for Social Media Analysis" by Mary McGlohon and Christos > > Faloutsos (Carnegie Mellon University). > > > > > > For further information, please write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Warmest regards, > > > > > > Carol Hamilton > > > Executive Director, AAAI > > > > > > -- > > > "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly > > what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear > > and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. > > > > > > There is another theory which states that this has already happened." > > > > > > Douglas Adams > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071127/9d348cae > > /attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:12:20 -0600 > > > From: Robert Cordingley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM > > > and Causality) > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > > > Coffee Group <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > Quick thought. Isn't 'designedness' directly proportional to a local > > > reduction in entropy (= a measure of disorder, etc.) ? There's lots of > > > math on entropy. > > > Robert C > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > > > All, > > > > > > > > I confess I have not followed the mathematical side of this discussion > > into > > > > the blue underlined stuff. Nor do I claim to understand all of the > > plain > > > > text. > > > > > > > > However, I am tempted by the idea of a mathematical formalization of > > > > "natural design". Here is the argument: What EVERYBODY --from the most > > > > dyed in the wool Natural Theologist to the most flaming Dawkinsian -- > > > > agrees on is that there is some property of natural objects which we > > might > > > > roughly call their designedness. Tremendous confusion has been sewn by > > > > biologists by confusing that property -- whatever it might be -- with > > the > > > > CAUSES of that property, variously God or Natural selection, or > > > > what-have-you. So much of what passes for causal explanation in > > biology > > > > is actually description of the "adaptation relation" or what I call, > > just > > > > to be a trouble-maker, "natural design". > > > > > > > > It seems to me that you mathematicians could do a great deal for > > biology by > > > > putting your minds to a formalization of "natural design". It would put > > > > Darwin's theory -- "natural selection begets natural design" out of the > > > > reach of tautology once and for all. What I am looking for here is a > > > > mathematical formalization of the relations --hierarchy of relations, I > > > > would suppose -- that leads to attributions of "designedness". Assuming > > > > that one had put a computer on a British Survey Vessel and sent it round > > > > the world for five years looking at the creatures and their > > surroundings, > > > > what is the mathematical description of the relation that would have to > > be > > > > obtained before the computer would come home saying that creatures were > > > > designed (and rocks weren't). Then -- and only then -- are we in a > > > > position to ask the question, "is natural selection the best explanation > > > > for this property. > > > > > > > > My supposition is that ALL current theories will not survive such an > > > > analysis. Indeed, we may need a new metaphor altogether. Many of you > > will > > > > be familiar with the notion of fitness landscape. For intuitive > > purposes, > > > > let me turn the landscape upside down, so its peaks are chasms and its > > > > valleys are peaks. Now, drop a ball at random into the upside down > > > > landscape. Assuming that the landscape is rigid, the ball will roll > > around > > > > until it finds a local minimum. If you put some jitter in the rolling, > > it > > > > might, depending on the size of the jitter and the roughness of the > > > > landscape, find the absolute minimum. But all of this assumes that the > > > > ball has no effect on the landscape! If we turn the landscape into a > > > > semi-rigid net so that the ball deforms the landscape as it rolls > > through > > > > it, then we have a much better metaphor for the relation between an > > > > organism's design and the environment in which it is operating. Some > > > > organisms -- weedy species -- cause the environment to rise under their > > > > feet, so to speak, so they are constantly driven out of whatever valley > > > > they settle in; Other organisms modify the environment in their favor > > and > > > > in effect, dig their way into a pit in the landscape. If the ball > > > > representing such organisms has inadequate jitter or the landscape is > > not > > > > sufficiently springy, such an organism can dig its way into a pit and > > then > > > > go extinct. > > > > > > > > In short we need a dynamical theory. But such a theory will never > > happen > > > > until we have a sufficiently subtle (and verbalizable) mathematical > > > > formalization of the momentary relation between organisms and their > > > > environments that we are trying to explain. Get at it, you > > > > mathematicians!!!! > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071127/0fe315c6 > > /attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:43:21 -0800 > > > From: "Glen E. P. Ropella" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM > > > and Causality) > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson on 11/27/2007 10:22 AM: > > > > In short we need a dynamical theory. But such a theory will never > > happen > > > > until we have a sufficiently subtle (and verbalizable) mathematical > > > > formalization of the momentary relation between organisms and their > > > > environments that we are trying to explain. Get at it, you > > > > mathematicians!!!! > > > > > > Isn't this what Robert Rosen tried to do? Granted his work is woefully > > > incomplete; but do you see some fundamental flaw in his work that > > > prevents it from providing (at least the foundations for) the > > > formalization you're looking for? > > > > > > - -- > > > glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com > > > The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully > > > is prepared to die at any time. -- Mark Twain > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > > > > > iD8DBQFHTI95ZeB+vOTnLkoRAizcAJ9DeJre8Z6iqpsr43DMn67ZGDCp0gCg4Lpn > > > 7vgcA85ZrRPxTVFzOXRJZOU= > > > =qlNw > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 5 > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:15:12 -0500 > > > From: "Prof David West" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] some thoughts on the educational aspect of 632 > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "The Friday Morning Applied > > > Complexity Coffee Group" <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > > > I have spent too much time thinking about this and too little actually > > > putting the ideas on paper. Consider the attached to be an outline that > > > will be collectively developed and elaborated - or summarily rejected. > > > > > > Warning - the attached is highly idiosyncratic and biased, even though > > > it is based on observations and interactions with the 632 and Friam > > > community. > > > > > > Feedback - even jeers and catcalls - welcomed. > > > > > > dave west > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > > Name: SFCEdu.doc > > > Type: application/msword > > > Size: 53248 bytes > > > Desc: not available > > > Url : > > http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071127/0b345037 > > /attachment-0001.doc > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 6 > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:14:51 -0700 > > > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM > > > andCausality) > > > To: "Robert Cordingley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "The Friday Morning > > > Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Well, given that I am referring to a PATTERN, and patterns are a form of > > negentropy, I think I am required to agree. > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Robert Cordingley > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > > Coffee Group > > > Sent: 11/27/2007 2:12:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM > > andCausality) > > > > > > > > > Quick thought. Isn't 'designedness' directly proportional to a local > > reduction in entropy (= a measure of disorder, etc.) ? There's lots of > > math on entropy. > > > Robert C > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > > All, > > > > > > I confess I have not followed the mathematical side of this discussion > > into > > > the blue underlined stuff. Nor do I claim to understand all of the plain > > > text. > > > > > > However, I am tempted by the idea of a mathematical formalization of > > > "natural design". Here is the argument: What EVERYBODY --from the most > > > dyed in the wool Natural Theologist to the most flaming Dawkinsian -- > > > agrees on is that there is some property of natural objects which we might > > > roughly call their designedness. Tremendous confusion has been sewn by > > > biologists by confusing that property -- whatever it might be -- with the > > > CAUSES of that property, variously God or Natural selection, or > > > what-have-you. So much of what passes for causal explanation in biology > > > is actually description of the "adaptation relation" or what I call, just > > > to be a trouble-maker, "natural design". > > > > > > It seems to me that you mathematicians could do a great deal for biology > > by > > > putting your minds to a formalization of "natural design". It would put > > > Darwin's theory -- "natural selection begets natural design" out of the > > > reach of tautology once and for all. What I am looking for here is a > > > mathematical formalization of the relations --hierarchy of relations, I > > > would suppose -- that leads to attributions of "designedness". Assuming > > > that one had put a computer on a British Survey Vessel and sent it round > > > the world for five years looking at the creatures and their surroundings, > > > what is the mathematical description of the relation that would have to be > > > obtained before the computer would come home saying that creatures were > > > designed (and rocks weren't). Then -- and only then -- are we in a > > > position to ask the question, "is natural selection the best explanation > > > for this property. > > > > > > My supposition is that ALL current theories will not survive such an > > > analysis. Indeed, we may need a new metaphor altogether. Many of you > > will > > > be familiar with the notion of fitness landscape. For intuitive purposes, > > > let me turn the landscape upside down, so its peaks are chasms and its > > > valleys are peaks. Now, drop a ball at random into the upside down > > > landscape. Assuming that the landscape is rigid, the ball will roll > > around > > > until it finds a local minimum. If you put some jitter in the rolling, it > > > might, depending on the size of the jitter and the roughness of the > > > landscape, find the absolute minimum. But all of this assumes that the > > > ball has no effect on the landscape! If we turn the landscape into a > > > semi-rigid net so that the ball deforms the landscape as it rolls through > > > it, then we have a much better metaphor for the relation between an > > > organism's design and the environment in which it is operating. Some > > > organisms -- weedy species -- cause the environment to rise under their > > > feet, so to speak, so they are constantly driven out of whatever valley > > > they settle in; Other organisms modify the environment in their favor and > > > in effect, dig their way into a pit in the landscape. If the ball > > > representing such organisms has inadequate jitter or the landscape is not > > > sufficiently springy, such an organism can dig its way into a pit and > > then > > > go extinct. > > > > > > In short we need a dynamical theory. But such a theory will never happen > > > until we have a sufficiently subtle (and verbalizable) mathematical > > > formalization of the momentary relation between organisms and their > > > environments that we are trying to explain. Get at it, you > > > mathematicians!!!! > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071127/14281a98 > > /attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 7 > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:09:30 -0700 > > > From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] one laptop per child > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > If I've been looking at the one laptop per child source code, and I'm > > > amazed by how much stuff is available. Better equipped for ABM stuff > > > than a lot of full Linux distributions. From Logo to Squeak to Mozilla > > > XULRunner, it's all there. Could use them for classes for grown ups, > > > I would think. The build tree is complex and well integrated -- it > > > builds for hours and hours... > > > I've only run the thing virtually, and I guess my only reservation is > > > that the laptop itself will be slow. Anyone put hands on one? Also, > > > has anyone actually had TamTam to play sound? That app seems > > > especially well done. Holiday season, you know.. :-) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 8 > > > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:18:21 -0700 > > > From: Carl Tollander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] one laptop per child > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > > > You might go blind programming the thing with the thing. Screen is > > > pretty small and the keyboard is not designed for big fingers. > > > Nevertheless, despite the language deficiencies :-) I did the > > > order/donation thing a couple days ago. Not expecting to see any OLPC > > > atoms before the new year, but they say they will keep me posted of > > > order progress by email. > > > > > > Maybe we could put Android on it. > > > > > > Carl > > > > > > Marcus G. Daniels wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > If I've been looking at the one laptop per child source code, and I'm > > > > amazed by how much stuff is available. Better equipped for ABM stuff > > > > than a lot of full Linux distributions. From Logo to Squeak to > > Mozilla > > > > XULRunner, it's all there. Could use them for classes for grown ups, > > > > I would think. The build tree is complex and well integrated -- it > > > > builds for hours and hours... > > > > I've only run the thing virtually, and I guess my only reservation is > > > > that the laptop itself will be slow. Anyone put hands on one? Also, > > > > has anyone actually had TamTam to play sound? That app seems > > > > especially well done. Holiday season, you know.. :-) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 9 > > > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:39:54 -0500 > > > From: "Alfredo Covaleda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] one laptop per child > > > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" > > > <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > So much has been said about OLPC (one laptop per child) for poor children > > in > > > the third world. It's wonderful and I'm sure it will help to reduce > > poverty > > > and enhance children's minds. Now Third world only got to get 200 millions > > > of children out of their jobs and guarantee for many of them at least one > > > bread and one glass of milk per day. Oops!, " ?Bread and milk for free?, > > > ?What kind of dirty populist and criminal communist proposal is that? ". > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > Alfredo > > > > > > > > > 2007/11/28, Marcus G. Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > If I've been looking at the one laptop per child source code, and I'm > > > > amazed by how much stuff is available. Better equipped for ABM stuff > > > > than a lot of full Linux distributions. From Logo to Squeak to Mozilla > > > > XULRunner, it's all there. Could use them for classes for grown ups, > > > > I would think. The build tree is complex and well integrated -- it > > > > builds for hours and hours... > > > > I've only run the thing virtually, and I guess my only reservation is > > > > that the laptop itself will be slow. Anyone put hands on one? Also, > > > > has anyone actually had TamTam to play sound? That app seems > > > > especially well done. Holiday season, you know.. :-) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071128/4acc827a > > /attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 10 > > > Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:16:01 -0700 > > > From: "Douglas Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] My employer in the news > > > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" > > > <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/795087.html > > > > > > -- > > > Doug Roberts, RTI International > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > 505-455-7333 - Office > > > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071128/19d5fa35 > > /attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Friam mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > > > > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 53, Issue 25 > > > ************************************* > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Mathematics > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
