Jack, Well, there's a couple other parts of conversation style in a forum like this. How people converse, mixing all kinds of personal and cultural banter with science ideas, and the potential of our fluid imaginations to conjure images and associations, is distinctly different in kind from any physical system. Then there's our subject and its duality, the use of science as a set of controlled tools trying to find how to begin to understand some the uncontrolled processes on which both our survival and interest in life rely.
I really think that 1996 essay of Rosen's I mentioned got to a very useful and easily understood side of his objection to science, that restricting science to the study of convergent sequences misses the divergent ones. Divergent processes seem to include many ones you observe that don't contain any information about what they're going to run into until they do, and so 'learn as they go'. Phil > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Jack Leibowitz > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 6:11 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > > Are you happy with that prescription? It seems to me that when we talk > about physical phenomena and explanation- or attempts at same- we > needn't > discard the basic idea of a scientific statement: consistency with what > is > known and predictability and falsifiability for what is claimed. > Otherwse, > we can substitute God for all the other words, such as emergence, etc. > > I don't mean to discredit concepts such those related to "emergence", > etc. > Some beautiful possibilities may reside in that direction. But I hope > it > doesn't suggest to proponents that we can abandon being scientists and > join > the ranks of those not similarly constrained by understandings about > what > makes Science so fabulously successful. > > This doesn't mean strictly remaining with restraints belonging under > the > heading of that horrible word "reductionism". > > By this time, I think , I have overstayed my welcome. I do respect the > good > things the group does. > > Jack > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Tollander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > > > > An emergent idea is one relatively few people are paying attention > to. > > If we indulged in specifics, the ideas would cease to be emergent. > > > > So I think its kind of like we're using averted vision. A post that > > points out an > > emergent idea is not necessarily inviting a collective hot needle of > > inquiry > > on that idea, but instead is illuminating a potential cloud of nearby > > ones. > > Sometimes it also takes a bit of noise injection to figure out what's > > being > > discussed, so you see those kinds of posts too. > > > > So, if you are new, the conversation seems to jump around a lot. > Takes > > a bit of getting used to. The main thing is to not think of the list > > primarily > > (though it does happen from time to time) a coherent narrative, > > but as a part of a larger environment of thought, readings and off > line > > discussion. > > > > Carl > > > > Robert Holmes wrote: > >> Jack - > >> > >> First rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics. > >> Second rule of FRIAM: no one talks about specifics > >> > >> Robert > >> > >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Jack Leibowitz > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > >> > >> As a new correspondent in the FRIAM family, would someone please > >> explain, > >> with specifics, what particular emergent ideas are being > referred > >> to in the > >> paragraph below. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>; "'The Friday Morning > Applied > >> Complexity > >> Coffee Group'" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:17 AM > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > >> > >> > >> >I guess that's the puzzle, since we can't use triangulation to > >> measure > >> > distance for stars we use various corollaries for age to > measure > >> distance > >> > and of distance to measure age, according to the equations > that > >> have > >> > seemed > >> > to make sense so far. That the equations have not been making > >> sense in > >> > several ways, like needing the invention of dark energy and > dark > >> matter to > >> > bend them for other discrepancies, is what science keeps > doing, > >> adding > >> > "epicycles" on old theory until some complete impasse > arises... and > >> > someone > >> > finally has to think up something completely new. If others > >> don't come > >> > to > >> > the same impasse, like not seeing that emergence *must* be a > local > >> > individual developmental process and so not asking *how*, no > >> amount of > >> > good > >> > solutions for the problem will be recognized. > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] On > >> >> Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson > >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:09 PM > >> >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> >> Subject: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies > >> >> > >> >> Dumb question for you cosmologists to chew over: > >> >> > >> >> How can they be so far away and yet so young? Or, to put it > even > >> >> dumber, > >> >> are there parts of the Universe that are so far away that > they > >> havent > >> >> happened yet? > >> >> > >> >> I guess this is a question about scales of distance vis a vis > >> scales of > >> >> time. > >> >> > >> >> Nick > >> >> > >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson > >> >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > >> >> Clark University ([EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > Friam mailing list > >> >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> >> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > End of Friam Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3 > >> >> > ************************************ > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ============================================================ > >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ============================================================ > >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
