P.S. Nick, Do you believe that robots are capable of feeling frustrated and irritated?
-- Russ On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Russ Abbott <[email protected]> wrote: > See below. > > -- Russ Abbott > _____________________________________________ > Professor, Computer Science > California State University, Los Angeles > Cell phone: 310-621-3805 > o Check out my blog at http://bluecatblog.wordpress.com/ > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> See comments in Navy Blue below. >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([email protected]) >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Russ Abbott <[email protected]> >> *To: *[email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity >> Coffee Group <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* 6/15/2009 8:49:41 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] (Subjective) experience >> >> When "experience" is used as a verb, we don't add the word "subjective." >> We add it when "experience" is used as a noun to refer to first person >> experience. The broader word "experience" isn't that precise. >> >> *How could an experience not be the experience from the point of view >> of an agent? I dont see what is being specified by the addition of >> "subjective". * >> >> Didn't I already respond to that? No point in doing it again. > >> * >> * >> But more to the point I'm still confused what you mean bv "I don't deny >> that I, or the cat, or even the robot, experience (when all three obey the >> rules of "experiencing"). What rules are you talking about? >> >> *The implicit rules anybody applies before they use a sentence like, "the >> cat was aware of the mouse." What would we have to see before we would. >> Sadly, there hasnt been much incentive to formalize those rules since we >> talk of experiene as an event somwhere rather than as a relationship between >> an agent and an event. * >> >> I don't believe I operate according to rules. So again, I don't know what > rules you are talking about. But more importantly, I'm more interested in a > sentence like "I was aware of the mouse." You keep changing the subject to > an observation of something else. The issue is what does it mean to say that > I am having an experience, e.g., "I feel nauseous." Does it mean anything to > you? I still don't know. Also, I still don't know whether you would > understand a robot that said "I feel nauseous" to mean the same sort of > thing that you mean by that sentence. > >> >> >> Furthermore, I don't agree that robots have the same sort of first person >> experience that we and cats do. Is that really your position, that robots >> "experience" the world the same way you do? If so, doesn't it follow that we >> should be kind to robots in the same way we should be kind to people and >> cats, that robots deserve humane treatment, etc.? >> >> *I was interested to see where you would draw the line. Some would draw >> it between the cat and the human. What I can't understand is what >> committment -- other than a metaphysical one -- would lead one to draw it >> anywhere in the absense of some empirical standard for what constitutes the >> act of experiencing. * >> >> > You are not answering the question. If a robot feeling nauseous means to > you the same thing as a human feeling nauseous, do you grant it the same > sorts of "rights" that we grant each other. I'd like to know your answer. > For example, would it be torture to waterboard a robot? > > >> >> -- Russ Abbott >> >> *Thanks for hanging in, here, Russ. This is interesting. * >> >> I'm beginning to feel irritated. It seems to me you aren't engaging in an > honest dialog since you aren't responding to the questions I asked. I took > some time to construct questions that would help me understand your > position. But if you won't answer them I'm wasting my time, which I find > frustrating, not interesting. > >> ** >> ** >> >> *Nick * >> >> _____________________________________________ >> Professor, Computer Science >> California State University, Los Angeles >> Cell phone: 310-621-3805 >> o Check out my blog at http://bluecatblog.wordpress.com/ >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Nicholas Thompson < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Russ, >>> >>> I don't think I am bickering or splitting hairs; but then, people who >>> are, never do. >>> >>> To put yourself in my frame of mind on these issues, start by saying what >>> you can say about what others "see". I see that my cat sees the mouse in >>> the corner of the room. >>> >>> Anything I can say of the cat, I can say of myself.; anything I cannot >>> say of the cat, I cannot say of myself.... well, except for the fur part. >>> >>> >>> If all experience is subjective, then we probably don't need the extra >>> word, do we? I don't deny that I, or the cat, or even the robot, experience >>> (when all three obey the rules of "experiencing"). I just don't see what >>> is gained by adding the word "subjective" except a very confusing and >>> inconsistent metaphysics. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >>> Clark University ([email protected]) >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Russ Abbott <[email protected]> >>> *To: *[email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity >>> Coffee Group <[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* 6/15/2009 7:38:20 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The ghost in the machine (was 'quick question') >>> >>> Nick, >>> >>> In one of the previous messages, you said, "I don't know about you, but >>> I experience a world." Experiencing a world is a mark of subjective >>> experience. Robots don't experience; they have sensors that measure things >>> and report those measures, from which the robot may draw conclusions. There >>> is a difference. I don't understand how you can deny that difference. >>> >>> After all, what do you mean by "experience the world" other than >>> subjective experience? Is this just a matter of terminological bickering? If >>> you are willing to say that you experience the world, then by my >>> understanding of "experience" you have subjective experience. >>> >>> -- Russ Abbott >>> _____________________________________________ >>> Professor, Computer Science >>> California State University, Los Angeles >>> Cell phone: 310-621-3805 >>> o Check out my blog at http://bluecatblog.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
