Thanks for the backup here.
Help me to see what questions I am not answering, here.
I MEAN to be answering Russ's questions, so given that he feels I am not, we
are near to being reduced to name calling and finger pointing.
Later this evening I will have a chance to work on this.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Smith
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 6/16/2009 10:20:00 AM
Subject: [FRIAM] Nick takes Metaphorazine was: (Subjective) experience
Russ Abbott wrote:
Again you didn't answer the question.
"Feel" has multiple meanings, only one of which has to do with palpating.
I feel for you Russ. I share your frustration with Nick's responses, yet I'm
pretty sure he is trying to get at something completely different which might
be why he is being so difficult about these questions...
Furthermore "feel" as referring to a subjective state is no more a metaphor
than any other language.If, when you get stuck for a reply you retreat to
calling language a metaphor, you will never deal with the issue. All
referential language is metaphor: "an expression used to refer to something
that it does not literally denote." where "denote" means "to be a sign or
indication of." All referential language is intentional. It is never the thing
to which it refers. Some language, such as exclamations, e.g., of joy, pain,
etc. are often an aspect of the thing itself. But this is a tangent. I want you
to deal with the issue of experience.
I suspect that all language is figurative. Many of our intellectualizations
are based on understanding by analogy and therefore rooted in metaphor (did I
just say "based on"? and then "rooted"? - *what* must I be talking "about"?
Can't I just be "direct" and quit "beating around the bush" and using
"oblique" and "tangential" references to things?).
I do suspect Nick might have been dipping into his Metaphorazine...
fortunately he's stayed out of his stash of Onamatopiates (so far) and you
don't want to be there when he jacks up on Alliterene and Hyberbolehyde! Did
he say he was just off to the Docs' for a fresh set of scrips?
Metaphorazine
by jeff noon
Johnny takes Metaphorazine. Every clockwork day. Says it burns his
house down, with a haircut made of wings. You could say he eats a
problem. You could say he stokes his thrill. Every clingfilm evening,
climb inside a little pill. Intoxicate the feelings. Play those skull-piano
blues.
Johnny takes Metaphorazine.
He's a dog.
For the full poem, click the link above.
I doubt that I can add any clarity with my own stirring here, but I feel
compelled. Or perhaps there is an observation of compellingness which is
uniquely situated in the metaphorical location which does not change when
movement happens. This reminds me (way too much) of the implications (I
think) of David Bohm's Rheomode.
I sometimes suspect that David Bohm drank Simileum like Absynthe. Or perhaps
it is just an occupational hazard of trying to understand and explain Quantum
Theory.
I believe that Nick's point is that among those who experience "I"ness (the
experience of being in the first person?), that this is really the experience
of observing from a unique perspective. That qualitatively, whatever
observers might exist, they are inherently 3rd person, observing a world.
What "we" (those illusory beings who feel first-personish) observe when we
think we are observing ourselves is really an illusion or a consequence of the
uniqueness of that observation being embodied, and nothing more (as if that is
not enough?). This is a subtle thing, and I'm not sure I really get it, but I
do feel that I have a hint of what he is trying to describe.
I'm not sure that the question of whether Robots (or computers, or smart
phones, or hand-calculators, or abacii, or quipu) have experiences is relevant
to this topic. That might be partially why Nick keeps ignoring it. I think
it is nevertheless an interesting (and important?) question, but I think it is
not germane to the point he is making.
I suppose Nick could speak for himself, but I'm having such a grand time trying
him on (after an extra heavy dose of Metaphorazine) that I can't help it!
Woof Woof, Squeek Squeek, Chirp Chirp, Blah Blah,
- Sieve
PS. Yes, I am perhaps, having waaay too much fun!
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