Steve, I appreciate your empathy and help. Nick, Here are some questions. How about taking a shot at them directly.
- Do robots feel irritation and frustration? - Do robots feel nauseous in the commonly understood sense of the terms "feel" and "nauseous"? Most people have no trouble understanding what "feeling nauseous" means. I have never heard anyone say that using the term "feeling nauseous" is grammatically strange. Let's just use the common sense meaning of the term. Or are you denying that the common sense meaning of the term has any content, e.g., like Santa Clause if taken literally. - Do you grant robots human rights? - Is waterboarding a robot torture? - Whether waterboarding a robot is torture or not would it be effective? If so, why and how. If not. how does that distinguish between robots and humans--for which waterboarding generally is effective. - And your own question: do robots dream? Or are you denying that you dream? I didn't understand your comment in that regard. Or were you acknowledging that the line of thought you are taking leads nowhere? -- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________ Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles Cell phone: 310-621-3805 o Check out my blog at http://bluecatblog.wordpress.com/ On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Nicholas Thompson < [email protected]> wrote: > Thanks for the backup here. > > Help me to see what questions I am not answering, here. > > I MEAN to be answering Russ's questions, so given that he feels I am not, > we are near to being reduced to name calling and finger pointing. > > Later this evening I will have a chance to work on this. > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([email protected]) > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Steve Smith <[email protected]> > *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group<[email protected]> > *Sent:* 6/16/2009 10:20:00 AM > *Subject:* [FRIAM] Nick takes Metaphorazine was: (Subjective) experience > > Russ Abbott wrote: > > Again you didn't answer the question. > > "Feel" has multiple meanings, only one of which has to do with palpating. > > I feel for you Russ. I share your frustration with Nick's responses, yet > I'm pretty sure he is trying to get at something completely different which > might be why he is being so difficult about these questions... > > Furthermore "feel" as referring to a subjective state is no more a metaphor > than any other language.If, when you get stuck for a reply you retreat to > calling language a metaphor, you will never deal with the issue. All > referential language is metaphor: "an expression used to refer to something > that it does not literally denote." where "denote" means "to be a sign or > indication of." All referential language is intentional. It is never the > thing to which it refers. Some language, such as exclamations, e.g., of joy, > pain, etc. are often an aspect of the thing itself. But this is a tangent. I > want you to deal with the issue of experience. > > I suspect that all language is *figurative*. Many of our > intellectualizations *are* based on understanding by analogy and therefore > rooted in *metaphor* (did I just say "based on"? and then "rooted"? - > *what* must I be talking "about"? Can't I just be "direct" and quit > "beating around the bush" and using "oblique" and "tangential" references > to things?). > > I do suspect Nick might have been dipping into his *Metaphorazine*... > fortunately he's stayed out of his stash of *Onamatopiates* (so far) and > you don't want to be there when he jacks up on *Alliterene* and * > Hyberbolehyde*! Did he say he was just off to the Docs' for a fresh set > of scrips? > > *Metaphorazine<http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-131799.html> > by jeff noon <http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-131799.html>* > * > > Johnny takes Metaphorazine. Every clockwork day. Says it burns his > house down, with a haircut made of wings. You could say he eats a > problem. You could say he stokes his thrill. Every clingfilm evening, > climb inside a little pill. Intoxicate the feelings. Play those skull-piano > blues. > Johnny takes Metaphorazine. > He's a dog. > * > > For the full poem, click the link above. > > > I doubt that I can add any clarity with my own stirring here, but I feel > compelled. Or perhaps there is an observation of compellingness which is > uniquely situated in the metaphorical location which does not change when > movement happens. This reminds me (way too much) of the implications (I > think) of David Bohm <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bohm>'s *Rheomode > *. <http://wik.inormous.net/index.php?title=Rheomode> > > I sometimes suspect that David Bohm drank *Simileum* like Absynthe. Or > perhaps it is just an occupational hazard of trying to understand and > explain Quantum Theory. > > I believe that Nick's point is that among those who experience "I"ness (the > experience of being in the first person?), that this is really the > experience of observing from a unique perspective. That qualitatively, > whatever observers might exist, they are inherently 3rd person, observing a > world. What "we" (those illusory beings who feel first-personish) observe > when we think we are observing ourselves is really an illusion or a > consequence of the uniqueness of that observation being embodied, and > nothing more (as if that is not enough?). This is a subtle thing, and I'm > not sure I really get it, but I do feel that I have a hint of what he is > trying to describe. > > I'm not sure that the question of whether Robots (or computers, or smart > phones, or hand-calculators, or abacii, or quipu) have experiences is > relevant to this topic. That might be partially why Nick keeps ignoring > it. I think it is nevertheless an interesting (and important?) question, > but I think it is not germane to the point he is making. > > I suppose Nick could speak for himself, but I'm having such a grand time > trying him on (after an extra heavy dose of *Metaphorazine*) that I can't > help it! > > Woof Woof, Squeek Squeek, Chirp Chirp, Blah Blah, > - Sieve > PS. Yes, I am perhaps, having waaay too much fun! > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
