Russ, Well, presumably i got those facts from some left wing rant. They both seemed like the kind of "facts" that would be difficult to fake, so I believed them. I will do my best to back them up. Please hold your mind open for a time while I do that.
Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([email protected]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > [Original Message] > From: Russell Gonnering <[email protected]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> > Date: 5/9/2010 8:40:08 AM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Arizona meets the Facebook community > > Nick- > > Please cite the facts that support your contention re the Arizona law empowering the police to ask for papers if you just happen to "look" Mexican and the source of the heavy weapons flowing to Mexico. > > The idea that the types of military-grade weapons used comes from smuggling civilian weapons bought in border states is refuted by: > http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2009/03/legal-us-arms- exports-may-be-source-narco-syndicates-rising-firepower > > The 90% of weapons having a US origin figure quoted by the Obama administration is called into question by that notoriously right-wing organization, the Annenberg Public Policy Center: > http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/index.html > > Reading the text of the bill: > http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf > I see no statute that entitles a "show me your papers" demand unless it is in the course of investigation of a crime. The straw man argument that police in Arizona (many of whom are Hispanic themselves) will harass people because they don't like the way they look BECAUSE of this bill does not seem logical. No doubt harassment occurs now, for a variety of reasons, but it would seem to be isolated incidents caused by bad cops, just like everywhere else in the US (or Mexico, for that matter). > > The Arizona bill provides for a fascinating study in emergence to anyone interested in complexity theory in the sociologic context. The current situation of increased crime, massive expenditure of Arizona capital and lack of federal responsibility in dealing with the situation has placed the situation at the "edge of chaos". The attractor wells are now insufficient to stabilize the situation, and something needs to change. It strikes me that introducing political ideology and straw-man arguments into the mix clouds the opportunity to learn something from the situation. David Snowden has eloquently shown, in his Cynefin Framework, what happens when an attempt is made to treat a complex domain as though it were simple, or even complicated: it drives the domain into chaos. The Arizona law can be viewed as a probe. The key is to now sense for the emergent order and respond. > > Or we can just sit back and watch the situation devolve into chaos..... > > I usually do carry my driver's license when I go to the mall, even when I ride my bike. I sort of like the idea of someone knowing who I am if I'm hit by a bus. If I happen to buy an adult beverage, I have to "show my papers", and that isn't to a cop, or even because I am being investigated for breaking a law. I don't feel imposed upon. When I lived in Austria, I had to carry my Ausweis all the time, and show it upon occasion when I went to a hotel, cashed a check and once, to "the man", when I attempted to ride the streetcar without paying and was caught. > > Russ #3 > > Russell Gonnering, MD, MMM, FACS, CPHQ > [email protected] > www.emergenthealth.net > > > On May 9, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > > Hey, guys. Isnt there already a law in Arizona that requires employers to check the papers of anybody they hire and gives them a website to do it? I understand that that law is not enforced, because, obviously, it would interfere with employers exploitation of illegal aliens. If it were enforced, much of Arizona's problem would be solved without the application of racial profiling, wouldn't it? > > > > Owen, would you really be happy to have your papers demanded every time you went to the Plaza because you happen to wear a pony tail? I really find it hard to imagine any FRIAM member being happy to have to carry and show papers every time she or he goes to the mall. You Defenders of Net Freedom, you! > > > > Also, a lot of illegal traffic coming from mexico would be curtailed if we would stop the flow of heavy weaponry from the US TO Mexico. > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > > Clark University ([email protected]) > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Owen Densmore > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > Sent: 5/8/2010 9:24:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Arizona meets the Facebook community > > > > Nicely said. > > > > It does seem to me that the nation itself is waiting for the immigration reform that should naturally be coming from the grid-locked congress/senate. I hope Arizona forces us to act in unity. > > > > Its fine to revert to "don't ask, don't tell" but it's dishonest. > > > > Clearly the endgame will have to be amnesty plus a work visa plus a means towards citizenship if desired. > > > > Unfortunately, the republicans have found a negative game strategy that guarantees at worst a stalemate, and at best, a win in the next election. > > > > -- Owen > > > > > > On May 8, 2010, at 8:45 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Russ Abbott <[email protected]> wrote: > >> It's not Arizona. Arizona was simply the first state to have the guts to act. More than 50% of Americans apparently approve the Arizona law. We should boycott the entire country--except perhaps enclaves like Sante Fe (?) and Los Angeles (where I live). Do you know what the statistics are with respect to how people in Sante Fe feel about the new law? > >> > >> > >> Those statistics were before major league baseball started organizing to move the all-star game out of Arizona. > >> > >> Arizona was also the only state that had the guts to dis Martin Luther King Jr's birthday as a holiday. Until the NFL moved the Super Bowl to Pasadena from Phoenix. > >> > >> I also believe it's been demonstrated that you can get "more than 50% of Americans to apparently approve" anything if you phrase the question right. > >> > >> -- rec -- > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
