Here's "Not the nine o'clock news" take on this from the 1980s in the UK: Constable Savage <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y&feature=related>
-- R On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Robert Holmes <[email protected]>wrote: > Russ, Nick, > > Here is the relevant part of the Arizona Senate Bill > 1070<http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf> > : > > 40 13-1509. Trespassing by illegal aliens; assessment; exception; > 41 classification > 42 A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF > 43 TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: > 44 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. > 45 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a). > > 1 B. IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF THIS SECTION, THE FINAL DETERMINATION OF AN > 2 ALIEN'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE DETERMINED BY EITHER: > 3 1. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO IS AUTHORIZED BY THE FEDERAL > 4 GOVERNMENT TO VERIFY OR ASCERTAIN AN ALIEN'S IMMIGRATION STATUS. > 5 2. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY COMMUNICATING WITH THE UNITED > 6 STATES IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES BORDER > 7 PROTECTION PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). > > The two codes referred to a line 45 are: > > - 8 USC 1304 (e <http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VII/1304>), > which demands that "Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall > at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any > certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card > issued to him"; and > - 8 USC 1306 (a) <http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VII/1306>, > which concerns the "willful failure to register". > > The important point is that 1070 puts no limitation on Law Enforcement > Officers (LEO) on how they determine an alien's immigration status. No > indication of how (or indeed if) the 4th amendment's probable cause should > be applied. Note: other states are explicit on what is allowed in an > interaction between LEOs and members of the public (see Google for details). > > In short, the Arizona law allows Law Enforcement Officers to stop anyone > and demand proof that they are not an alien who is trespassing in Arizona. > > -- R > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Nicholas Thompson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Russ, >> >> Well, presumably i got those facts from some left wing rant. They both >> seemed like the kind of "facts" that would be difficult to fake, so I >> believed them. I will do my best to back them up. Please hold your mind >> open for a time while I do that. >> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([email protected]) >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] >> >> >> >> >> > [Original Message] >> > From: Russell Gonnering <[email protected]> >> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> [email protected]> >> > Date: 5/9/2010 8:40:08 AM >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Arizona meets the Facebook community >> > >> > Nick- >> > >> > Please cite the facts that support your contention re the Arizona law >> empowering the police to ask for papers if you just happen to "look" >> Mexican and the source of the heavy weapons flowing to Mexico. >> > >> > The idea that the types of military-grade weapons used comes from >> smuggling civilian weapons bought in border states is refuted by: >> > >> >> http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2009/03/legal-us-arms- >> exports-may-be-source-narco-syndicates-rising-firepower<http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2009/03/legal-us-arms-exports-may-be-source-narco-syndicates-rising-firepower> >> > >> > The 90% of weapons having a US origin figure quoted by the Obama >> administration is called into question by that notoriously right-wing >> organization, the Annenberg Public Policy Center: >> > http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/index.html >> > >> > Reading the text of the bill: >> > http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf >> > I see no statute that entitles a "show me your papers" demand unless it >> is in the course of investigation of a crime. The straw man argument that >> police in Arizona (many of whom are Hispanic themselves) will harass >> people >> because they don't like the way they look BECAUSE of this bill does not >> seem logical. No doubt harassment occurs now, for a variety of reasons, >> but it would seem to be isolated incidents caused by bad cops, just like >> everywhere else in the US (or Mexico, for that matter). >> > >> > The Arizona bill provides for a fascinating study in emergence to >> anyone >> interested in complexity theory in the sociologic context. The current >> situation of increased crime, massive expenditure of Arizona capital and >> lack of federal responsibility in dealing with the situation has placed >> the >> situation at the "edge of chaos". The attractor wells are now >> insufficient >> to stabilize the situation, and something needs to change. It strikes me >> that introducing political ideology and straw-man arguments into the mix >> clouds the opportunity to learn something from the situation. David >> Snowden has eloquently shown, in his Cynefin Framework, what happens when >> an attempt is made to treat a complex domain as though it were simple, or >> even complicated: it drives the domain into chaos. The Arizona law can be >> viewed as a probe. The key is to now sense for the emergent order and >> respond. >> > >> > Or we can just sit back and watch the situation devolve into chaos..... >> > >> > I usually do carry my driver's license when I go to the mall, even when >> I >> ride my bike. I sort of like the idea of someone knowing who I am if I'm >> hit by a bus. If I happen to buy an adult beverage, I have to "show my >> papers", and that isn't to a cop, or even because I am being investigated >> for breaking a law. I don't feel imposed upon. When I lived in Austria, >> I >> had to carry my Ausweis all the time, and show it upon occasion when I >> went >> to a hotel, cashed a check and once, to "the man", when I attempted to >> ride the streetcar without paying and was caught. >> > >> > Russ #3 >> > >> > Russell Gonnering, MD, MMM, FACS, CPHQ >> > [email protected] >> > www.emergenthealth.net >> > >> > >> > On May 9, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> > >> > > Hey, guys. Isnt there already a law in Arizona that requires >> employers to check the papers of anybody they hire and gives them a >> website >> to do it? I understand that that law is not enforced, because, obviously, >> it would interfere with employers exploitation of illegal aliens. If it >> were enforced, much of Arizona's problem would be solved without the >> application of racial profiling, wouldn't it? >> > > >> > > Owen, would you really be happy to have your papers demanded every >> time >> you went to the Plaza because you happen to wear a pony tail? I really >> find it hard to imagine any FRIAM member being happy to have to carry and >> show papers every time she or he goes to the mall. You Defenders of Net >> Freedom, you! >> > > >> > > Also, a lot of illegal traffic coming from mexico would be curtailed >> if we would stop the flow of heavy weaponry from the US TO Mexico. >> > > >> > > Nick >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Nicholas S. Thompson >> > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> > > Clark University ([email protected]) >> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> > > http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: Owen Densmore >> > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> > > Sent: 5/8/2010 9:24:17 PM >> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Arizona meets the Facebook community >> > > >> > > Nicely said. >> > > >> > > It does seem to me that the nation itself is waiting for the >> immigration reform that should naturally be coming from the grid-locked >> congress/senate. I hope Arizona forces us to act in unity. >> > > >> > > Its fine to revert to "don't ask, don't tell" but it's dishonest. >> > > >> > > Clearly the endgame will have to be amnesty plus a work visa plus a >> means towards citizenship if desired. >> > > >> > > Unfortunately, the republicans have found a negative game strategy >> that >> guarantees at worst a stalemate, and at best, a win in the next election. >> > > >> > > -- Owen >> > > >> > > >> > > On May 8, 2010, at 8:45 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: >> > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Russ Abbott <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> It's not Arizona. Arizona was simply the first state to have the guts >> to act. More than 50% of Americans apparently approve the Arizona law. We >> should boycott the entire country--except perhaps enclaves like Sante Fe >> (?) and Los Angeles (where I live). Do you know what the statistics are >> with respect to how people in Sante Fe feel about the new law? >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Those statistics were before major league baseball started organizing >> to move the all-star game out of Arizona. >> > >> >> > >> Arizona was also the only state that had the guts to dis Martin >> Luther >> King Jr's birthday as a holiday. Until the NFL moved the Super Bowl to >> Pasadena from Phoenix. >> > >> >> > >> I also believe it's been demonstrated that you can get "more than 50% >> of Americans to apparently approve" anything if you phrase the question >> right. >> > >> >> > >> -- rec -- >> > >> ============================================================ >> > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > >> > > ============================================================ >> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
