I cannot resist: a very accurate description of the impact of religion, via a single word substitution.
In my opinion. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Roger Critchlow <[email protected]> wrote: > [...] > > *Incredible but true, some people start ignorant and become more so.* > > -- rec -- > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Douglas Roberts <[email protected]>wrote: > >> First things first: the bumper sticker. It is, sadly, real, and not just >> a photoshopped artifact: >> >> It came out of Georgia, and the woman who created it was shocked, just >> shocked, that people would think it racist. >> >> >> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/don-t-nig-purveyor-paula-smith-says-bumper-185405237.html >> >> More to come... >> >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Doug - >>> >>> You may be correct that the tools are insufficient and/or distancing >>> through abstraction... and yes it may be a side show. But as you point >>> out, a side show that has not even been mounted. >>> >>> >>> *Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful >>> effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma, plus >>> whatever the deep underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem >>> to draw whole populations into those belief systems. >>> >>> * >>> >>> I don't disagree that these are the *symptoms* we experience/observe. >>> But I'm still more than a little curious about the *causes*. You might >>> posit (I think you did! ) that the *cause* of various irrational, hateful, >>> harmful effects are "mass adherence to narrow, fundamental, religious >>> dogma" and I can't really argue with you on that. But where the hell does >>> *that* come from? Is it necessary? >>> >>> My suggestion of a model (at the risk of distancing through abstraction) >>> is to seek a more "systematic" answer... *What* are those underlying >>> psychological urges you speak of? Are there alternative systems of >>> thinking and organization that might yield more desirable global >>> behaviours? >>> >>> What *fundamental* aspects of our systems of belief (religious, >>> political, economic, social, etc.) are *guaranteed* to lead us there over >>> and over. Call it Islam, call it Mormonism, call it Logical Positivism, >>> but why does it so often lead us back to the same self-rightous, intolerant >>> places? Were not most if not all religions founded or evolved or shaped >>> around trying to fix the existing flaws in the systems previously in place? >>> >>> >>> *You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good history >>> books.* >>> >>> You may read different history books than I do. The history books I >>> read illustrate *that* whole populations are drawn into dysfunctional >>> behaviours supported by their belief systems (though depending on who wrote >>> them, it is always a one-sided story, glorifying one set of dysfunction in >>> contrast to another demonized set. >>> >>> I suggested *illumination* not *illustration*. I can look around, >>> from your (existing only in photoshop I suspect) racist bumpersticker or >>> just about every conversation I hear to have what we are talking about >>> *illustrated*... but what I want to know is *what is it all about?*, is >>> there anything to be done! CAN we get enough distance through abstraction >>> to discover actionable or effectual changes in local strategy to effect >>> global change? >>> >>> Or do we just fall (dive headlong?) into a bubbling mass of xenophobic >>> blame and/or self-righteous cynicism? I personally prefer the latter, but >>> it really doesn't change anything for the better. >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve, you perhaps accidentally point out what in my opinion is the >>> primary weakness of this so-called "Complexity" group. That weakness >>> being, again solely in my opinion, an inability or perhaps an unwillingness >>> to face the real substantive, important complexity issues that surround us. >>> >>> Instead, the group nearly always proposes to study some superficial >>> abstract, academic side issue. It doesn't seem to matter what the >>> particular "complexity" issue du Jour is, the "solution" proposed, but >>> never implemented by the members of this list is *always* some abstract, >>> distancing, academic approach. >>> >>> Not that I am picking on you, really I am not. But seriously, are you >>> proposing to use an ABM to explain the societal effects of religious >>> fundamentalism? That would be a side show. It would place a level of >>> abstraction between the real issue and the observer which would totally >>> mask the underlying causal issues. >>> >>> Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful >>> effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma, plus >>> whatever the deep underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem >>> to draw whole populations into those belief systems. >>> >>> You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good history >>> books. >>> >>> And if you want to understand why people are so prone to locking >>> themselves into destructive, exclusive, egocentric world-views, well, good >>> luck with that. I suspect however that game theoretics and ABMs are not >>> the proper tools for the job. >>> >>> --Doug >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hussein - >>>> >>>> I hear you... many of us are challenged to defend the name of our God >>>> or our Faith or our gender or our cultural or genetic heritage or sexual >>>> orientation or hair color or set of our jaw. Even when obviously (but >>>> superficially?) motivated, these are false challenges and to accept them is >>>> a fools game. >>>> >>>> The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem" Mormons) are not >>>> helping, even if some who act in it's name are doing horrific things. >>>> Those who paint with a broad brush can only slop their own paint on >>>> themselves... >>>> >>>> From much distance at all, everyone else looks like "other". >>>> >>>> I'm often disappointed with this list (myself included) that we invoke >>>> the terms of Complexity Science but don't often take it anywhere. >>>> >>>> Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the point, an agent model >>>> based on game theoretic principles that might help to illuminate this >>>> phenomenon? The phenomena of personal vs shared belief, sectarianism, >>>> intolerance? Is there a small subset (in the spirit of the oft-cited MOTH >>>> strategy for prisoner's dilemma) of the phenomena that can show a bit of >>>> it? >>>> >>>> - Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Los Alamos Visualization Associates >>>> LAVA-Synergy >>>> 4200 W. Jemez rd >>>> Los Alamos, NM [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Doug Roberts >>> [email protected] >>> [email protected] >>> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >>> >>> 505-455-7333 - Office >>> 505-670-8195 - Cell >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Doug Roberts >> [email protected] >> [email protected] >> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >> 505-455-7333 - Office >> 505-670-8195 - Cell >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > -- Doug Roberts [email protected] [email protected] http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
