And she removed the bumper-sticker from her web-site after the
interview with the journalist from Forbes.
Incredible but true, some people start ignorant and become less so.
-- rec --
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Douglas Roberts <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
First things first: the bumper sticker. It is, sadly, real, and
not just a photoshopped artifact:
It came out of Georgia, and the woman who created it was shocked,
just shocked, that people would think it racist.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/don-t-nig-purveyor-paula-smith-says-bumper-185405237.html
More to come...
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Steve Smith <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Doug -
You may be correct that the tools are insufficient and/or
distancing through abstraction... and yes it may be a side
show. But as you point out, a side show that has not even
been mounted.
/Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful,
harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental
religious dogma, plus whatever the deep
underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to
draw whole populations into those belief systems.
/
I don't disagree that these are the *symptoms* we
experience/observe. But I'm still more than a little curious
about the *causes*. You might posit (I think you did! ) that
the *cause* of various irrational, hateful, harmful effects
are "mass adherence to narrow, fundamental, religious dogma"
and I can't really argue with you on that. But where the hell
does *that* come from? Is it necessary?
My suggestion of a model (at the risk of distancing through
abstraction) is to seek a more "systematic" answer... *What*
are those underlying psychological urges you speak of? Are
there alternative systems of thinking and organization that
might yield more desirable global behaviours?
What *fundamental* aspects of our systems of belief
(religious, political, economic, social, etc.) are
*guaranteed* to lead us there over and over. Call it Islam,
call it Mormonism, call it Logical Positivism, but why does it
so often lead us back to the same self-rightous, intolerant
places? Were not most if not all religions founded or evolved
or shaped around trying to fix the existing flaws in the
systems previously in place?
/You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few
good history books./
You may read different history books than I do. The history
books I read illustrate *that* whole populations are drawn
into dysfunctional behaviours supported by their belief
systems (though depending on who wrote them, it is always a
one-sided story, glorifying one set of dysfunction in
contrast to another demonized set.
I suggested *illumination* not *illustration*. I can look
around, from your (existing only in photoshop I suspect)
racist bumpersticker or just about every conversation I hear
to have what we are talking about *illustrated*... but what I
want to know is *what is it all about?*, is there anything to
be done! CAN we get enough distance through abstraction to
discover actionable or effectual changes in local strategy to
effect global change?
Or do we just fall (dive headlong?) into a bubbling mass of
xenophobic blame and/or self-righteous cynicism? I personally
prefer the latter, but it really doesn't change anything for
the better.
- Steve
Steve, you perhaps accidentally point out what in my opinion
is the primary weakness of this so-called "Complexity" group.
That weakness being, again solely in my opinion, an
inability or perhaps an unwillingness to face the real
substantive, important complexity issues that surround us.
Instead, the group nearly always proposes to study some
superficial abstract, academic side issue. It doesn't seem
to matter what the particular "complexity" issue du Jour is,
the "solution" proposed, but never implemented by the members
of this list is *always* some abstract, distancing, academic
approach.
Not that I am picking on you, really I am not. But
seriously, are you proposing to use an ABM to explain the
societal effects of religious fundamentalism? That would be
a side show. It would place a level of abstraction between
the real issue and the observer which would totally mask the
underlying causal issues.
Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful,
harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental
religious dogma, plus whatever the deep
underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to
draw whole populations into those belief systems.
You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good
history books.
And if you want to understand why people are so prone to
locking themselves into destructive, exclusive,
egocentric world-views, well, good luck with that. I
suspect however that game theoretics and ABMs are not the
proper tools for the job.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Steve Smith
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hussein -
I hear you... many of us are challenged to defend the
name of our God or our Faith or our gender or our
cultural or genetic heritage or sexual orientation or
hair color or set of our jaw. Even when obviously (but
superficially?) motivated, these are false challenges and
to accept them is a fools game.
The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem" Mormons)
are not helping, even if some who act in it's name are
doing horrific things. Those who paint with a broad
brush can only slop their own paint on themselves...
From much distance at all, everyone else looks like "other".
I'm often disappointed with this list (myself included)
that we invoke the terms of Complexity Science but don't
often take it anywhere.
Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the point, an
agent model based on game theoretic principles that might
help to illuminate this phenomenon? The phenomena of
personal vs shared belief, sectarianism, intolerance?
Is there a small subset (in the spirit of the oft-cited
MOTH strategy for prisoner's dilemma) of the phenomena
that can show a bit of it?
- Steve
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps athttp://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
505-455-7333 <tel:505-455-7333> - Office
505-670-8195 <tel:505-670-8195> - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
