--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:20 AM, Prof David West <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
The problem is not with the Religion - it is with various
interpretations of the religion. And it is a myth that there is a
"majority" available to counteract or condemn the "minority"
Take the obscene group of "Christians" that like to protest at
military funerals claiming "the death is a good thing because it
is God's punishment for tolerating gays." Or the group that
financed the film at issue the last few days. (Or Mel Gibson's
father's church.) ....
Following Owen's argument we should see almost every other person
who professes to be a Christian denounce this kind of base
misinterpretation of their Religion. But it does not happen -
because "they" are not "us" and so we do not have to explain,
apologize or denounce. Only a few political and religious leaders
will react - the Archbishop of Santa Fe, for example, stated that
those people are not following the precepts of the Christian
religion and should be ignored. Note: no one said they should be
expelled, excommunicated, from Christianity or that Christians
were in any way responsible - even though the extreme position is
grounded in another, more mainstream _interpretation_ of what the
Bible may or may not say about homosexuality. Hussein Abbas'
eloquent response is a personal example of exactly this kind of
phenomenon.
There is an exact parallel evident in the middle east today.
Yesterday I heard two imams, the president of Egypt, and the
president of Yemen state that Islam provided no excuse for the
violence - that blasphemy is not an excuse for violence, even to
the blasphemer. (Homenei's famous fatwa against Salman Rushdie was
denounced by a majority of other imams.) Also heard were promises
to seek out and punish the perpetrators (hard there and equally
hard here because of the rule of law). In Pakistan, it is the
imams that are denouncing the morons that apparently framed and
wanted to put to death a young women with mental development
issues, for blasphemy.
Owen will never see the reaction he seeks - here, there, anywhere
- because sectarianism in every religion means there is no
"majority" that can react and that every sect sees themselves as
apart from "those idiots over there" and therefore Not
Responsible. Nevertheless, Individual leaders, religious and
political, do and are currently doing exactly what Owen asks -
denouncing, pointing out misinterpretations, apologizing (for
faith and for country) for the miscreants, asking for
understanding, and promising all possible corrective
action/punishment.
Is it our own insistence to treat a highly diverse group as a
monolithic bloc the real root of the problems? Coupled, of
course, with our unwillingness to truly examine and understand our
own religion let alone that of someone else.
dave west
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012, at 09:25 PM, Hussein Abbass wrote:
Owen
While I am an IT professor, I am very backward in using blogs and
almost incapable of expressing myself in emails or otherwise.
Your question would be better discussed in a long session with
lots of coffees and chocolates J
I do not normally put my Moslim hat on; almost never because I
see religion as a relationship between me and God that is no one
else business. Therefore, my actions are my responsibilities and
if I do something good I take the reward personally so why when I
do something bad should my religion, or any dimension of my
identity be blamed.
But your question was interesting. Not just from complexity
perspective, from many other dimensions that once more, writing
long emails would not send the right message through.
Sometimes the good Moslims (whatever this means and in whose
eyes) do not respond simply because they do not agree with the
premise. The premise of the religion as the centre for conflict.
The premise that we should be blamed for our belief. The premise
that I should spend my time justifying someone else actions
simply because there is a perception that I and them share
something in common because it is written in my passport or on a
system somewhere. If I believe in doing good, I would like to
invest my time in that, and not invest my time to defend bad when
bad was not my action in the first place.
So call it an ego-centric or whatever, this is I. In Islam, when
we do good, we should not talk about it because we are doing it
to fulfil a sacred commitment to God. In fact, there is a premise
that you should hide the good you are doing to get a better
reward from God. This is too complicated to explain in an email!
Some of us just do not wish to be bothered to defend or discuss
the bad because the time and resources to spend on doing good
alone are very limited. The world is full of opportunities to do
good, why should we spend the time to discuss the bad!
Sometimes also if we wish to explain concepts properly, you would
not do it properly in a simple email or a simple discussion.
There are things that can take a long time to understand before
we can use them to explain!
If this sounds a weak argument, we have to dig down to the roots
to see what defines weak and strong arguments; and that is a long
discussion!
If I want to use a complexity lens, the Egyptian reply was a
choice they made on a Pareto curve. If someone seriously wishes
to understand it, they will need to analyse in details the
underlying axes for this Pareto curve, the sources of
anti-correlation, and the interaction of the utility functions.
Only then, they will see the complex dilemma setting at the roots
of this reply as compared to a possibly artificial politically
correct reply that some people expect.
If the above is a starting point for a discussion, next time you
visit Australia, drop by and we can attempt to resolve it all on
a nice cup of coffee with nice dark chocolates J
Kind regards
Hussein
From:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012 3:01 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in
Libya | The Economist
The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story
on the Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW
This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect
notions: Why don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter
this insanity on the part of their fundamentalists? At least
some attempt to apologize for My Religion, The Bad Parts? God
knows I do!
We had an imam visit the cathedral in Santa Fe to discuss the
simplicity and beauty of his religion. Some questions were asked
about The Bad Parts, in a very civilized manor. The conversation
was sane, polite, and certainly informative.
What if the Vatican sent out a hit squad for all the similar
anti-Christian movies or other inflammatory media? Or the
Buddhists sent ninjas after non-believers? Or the Jews killed
Dutch cartoonists?
What I'm getting at is this: why *isn't* there a strong community
of sane and vocal muslims at least trying to communicate to the
rest of us?
Please do understand that this is not a rant against religion,
but more of a puzzled look at an insane situation. And Yes, I
really wish we'd keep our nose out of other's affairs. I'm not
trying to be a bigot. But I truly would like to grok this
phenomenon.
What am I missing? Good complexity question, I bet.
-- Owen
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--
Doug Roberts
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
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505-455-7333 - Office
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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