Absolutely to Steve, and whiskey and a talk about all this. I would
LOVE to.
Just tell me the time and place.
Tory
On Sep 14, 2012, at 12:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
Victoria,
I was speaking from the perspective of two religions with which I
have first-hand familiarity: Christianity and Islam. Both of which
require faith as a prerequisite of membership.
But yes, I'd enjoy drinking whiskey with you and, if I may suggest,
Steve S. to discuss further.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Victoria Hughes <[email protected]
> wrote:
Doug -
You are defining religion differently than I am. I said nothing
about blind faith. That was your term.
I was talking about belief. You have belief (blind faith?) in your
intellectual objectivism.
Buddha said very clearly and consistently "Do not do this because I
tell you to. Try this and see if it works for you, and then do it or
not."
I am happy to continue this until the cows come home, but I suspect
this list is not the place.
If you want to meet over whisky, and get into this, let me know.
Tory
<SeaCliff 24.125.jpg>
Tory Hughes
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On Sep 14, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
Well see, here we go again.
To which I come back again with the point of view that any
philosophy, or religion that is human-centric in nature as both
Christianity or Islam are, is inherently bad. A narrow world view,
enabled, promoted, and enforced with even narrower strict
fundamentalist practitioners is by definition destructive.
There can be no greater moral deficiency than having been born with
an intellect and then refusing to use it.
Blind faith is exactly that: blind. "Faith" in religion is defined
as having accepted, unquestioningly, what someone else has told you
is the one true way.
I personally have no respect for religious faith.
I respect people's right to chose to live that way, right up to the
point where they attempt to influence how I live and think. But not
their decision to unquestioningly commit to a dogma.
Religion, because it requires "faith" to become a subscriber, is
inherently bad.
And as long as we're on the subject, if religion is bad for the
reasons described above, then the opposite of religion is
cosmology: the science of trying to understand the universe rather
than attempting to explain it away with fairy tales.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Victoria Hughes <[email protected]
> wrote:
Religion is not inherently bad. It is the use of it for mundane
power that is the problem.
All religious traditions began with a prophet / visionary / mystic
who urged tolerance, peace and self-awareness. Muhammad, Jesus,
Buddha... In most cases, that person's initial followers began to
leverage their own closeness and supposed 'superior understanding'
to that original figure to justify behaviour that benefited their
mundane activities.
Every religion has gone through this. Every creed of any kind has
gone through this. The challenge is our use of belief.
Nick could speak to this too: there are developmental lines in the
psychology of individuals, groups, nations, tribes, etc: and these
will use powerful innate tools (like the human need to believe in
something) for different purposes, depending on their development.
And there is nothing inherently wrong or flawed in the things in
which people embed their beliefs. Science, truth, the divine, all
those have positive beneficial elements. Again, it is the use of
those concepts as tools to persuade others into actions that
destroy that is the problem.
Self-awareness in all this is the key.
Tory
On Sep 14, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
One semi-final note from me about culture and religion: I lived
in Libya for a year in 1976 when I was a consultant to Occidental
Petroleum. I traveled extensively between Tripoli, Benghazi, and
several points about 900 miles southeast of Tripoli in the
northern tip of the Sahara during that year. I quickly learned
that the culture of the Arabic half of Libya (as compared to the
Berber Bedouin culture that comprises the eastern half of the
country) is dominated by the Islamic religion. You cannot
separate them. Religion is interwoven into every aspect of their
culture. Any attempt to exclude the impact of religion on their
culture will fail.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <[email protected]
> wrote:
Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen.
There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms
shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and
killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is
derogatory of the Muslim religion.
And this is not about religion?
I don't see it.
Or you don't see it.
What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this
particular issue.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore
<[email protected]> wrote:
I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all. The
question is of groups and institutions.
When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not
expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and
to mend?
When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at
Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes
did so. Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position
the organization takes. Examples abound. And yes, I consider
this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model.
Isn't this possibly a cultural issue? Possibly regional? The
largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the
middle east, its Indonesia. They do not appear to have this issue.
So my question stands as Kofi stated:
"Where are the leaders? Where is the Majority? Nobody speaks
up."
NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which
the religion lies.
And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has
nothing to do with speaking out against injustice. It is not a
religious issue, but a civic, cultural one.
-- Owen
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Doug Roberts
[email protected]
[email protected]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
[email protected]
[email protected]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
[email protected]
[email protected]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
