Nick, you're in fine form. Can't wait until you come back to Santa Fe so that I may better experience it once again in person.
It's been a rather full Friday of trying to get my work done while communicating with my colleagues on the off-topics of politics and religion. One closing note, however on the latter selection: you may have faith that when it comes to religion, I am totally faithless. I didn't buy into the concept while they were trying to brainwash it into me at the tender age of 8 in Sunday school at the United Church in Los Alamos, and I'm still not buying. But thank you for once again taking such an interest in my own particular world view! --Doug On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Nicholas Thompson < [email protected]> wrote: > Here we go again, indeed. **** > > ** ** > > “Blind faith” is a redundancy, right? All faith is blind. We do not have > faith in what we doubt. As Peirce would say: Doubt is not a guest. We > do not entertain it. When it moves in, it sleeps in our bed, eats at our > table, goes to work with us, and listens to NPR with us when we drive home > in the car. Ditto belief. Descartes notion that we doubt everything > that we cannot assert with certainty was … to coin a phrase … crap. **** > > ** ** > > So we are talking about faith, full stop. And we are talking about the > claim, made by a single man, Doug Roberts, as it happens, although it could > be any man, *that he lives without faith*. **** > > ** ** > > I stipulate that I am wrong if it can be shown that Doug Roberts lives > without faith. **** > > ** ** > > How to test such a proposition? I could put the burden on Doug. I could > say, “Doug, show me that every proposition you believe is founded in > explicit premises for which you know the evidence, which evidentiary > premises are themselves founded on explicit premises for which you know the > evidence. Etc. ” In other words, prove the null. This seems harsh, but > just, given the boldness of the claim. **** > > ** ** > > I would predict that whatever belief Doug (or any other human) might > choose to hold, if we walk him backward through his premises, we will > eventually find a place where he appeals to stubbornness (“I have always > believed that”), authority (“my orals committee told me it was true”), or > consensus (“the guys in the lab all agree it’s true”), and these, in my > book, are all forms of faith. We are all capable of thinking > scientifically for a bit. After that, Sahib, it’s turtles all the way > down. **** > > ** ** > > I think it’s fair to say that the sooner such a place is reached in some > person’s thinking on a subject, the less interesting that person’s thinking > on that subject is.. For that reason, I would assume that Doug shares my > distaste for “short loop” explanations such as “God’s will” or “because the > spirit moved me”. If this is what he means by faith, then I absolutely > agree with him. But the problem here is not faith, itself, which always > lies somewhere down there amongst the turtles, but the rapidity to which a > shallow thinker appeals to it. **** > > ** ** > > Coming back to Santa Fe in a couple of weeks. Aren’t you guys GLAD?! I > am excited. **** > > ** ** > > Nick **** > > ** ** > > **** > > ** ** > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On > Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 1:19 PM > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya > | The Economist**** > > ** ** > > Well see, here we go again. **** > > ** ** > > To which I come back again with the point of view that any philosophy, or > religion that is human-centric in nature as both Christianity or Islam are, > is inherently bad. A narrow world view, enabled, promoted, and enforced > with even narrower strict fundamentalist practitioners is by definition > destructive.**** > > ** ** > > There can be no greater moral deficiency than having been born with an > intellect and then refusing to use it.**** > > ** ** > > Blind faith is exactly that: blind. "Faith" in religion is defined as > having accepted, unquestioningly, what someone else has told you is the one > true way. **** > > ** ** > > I personally have no respect for religious faith. **** > > ** ** > > I respect people's right to chose to live that way, right up to the point > where they attempt to influence how I live and think. But not their > decision to unquestioningly commit to a dogma.**** > > ** ** > > Religion, because it requires "faith" to become a subscriber, is > inherently bad.**** > > ** ** > > And as long as we're on the subject, if religion is bad for the reasons > described above, then the opposite of religion is cosmology: the science of > trying to *understand* the universe rather than attempting to explain it > away with fairy tales.**** > > ** ** > > --Doug**** > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Victoria Hughes <[email protected]> > wrote:**** > > ** ** > > *Religion is not inherently bad. *It is the use of it for mundane power > that is the problem. **** > > All religious traditions began with a prophet / visionary / mystic who > urged tolerance, peace and self-awareness. Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha... In > most cases, that person's initial followers began to leverage their own > closeness and supposed 'superior understanding' to that original figure to > justify behaviour that benefited their mundane activities.**** > > ** ** > > Every religion has gone through this. Every creed of any kind has gone > through this. The challenge is our use of belief. **** > > ** ** > > Nick could speak to this too: there are developmental lines in the > psychology of individuals, groups, nations, tribes, etc: and these will use > powerful innate tools (like the human need to believe in something) for > different purposes, depending on their development. **** > > ** ** > > And there is nothing inherently wrong or flawed in the things in which > people embed their beliefs. Science, truth, the divine, all those have > positive beneficial elements. Again, it is the use of those concepts as > tools to persuade others into actions that destroy that is the problem. ** > ** > > ** ** > > Self-awareness in all this is the key.**** > > ** ** > > Tory**** > > ** ** > > On Sep 14, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:**** > > ** ** > > One semi-final note from me about culture and religion: I lived in Libya > for a year in 1976 when I was a consultant to Occidental Petroleum. > I traveled extensively between Tripoli, Benghazi, and several points about > 900 miles southeast of Tripoli in the northern tip of the Sahara during > that year. I quickly learned that the culture of the Arabic half of Libya > (as compared to the Berber Bedouin culture that comprises the eastern half > of the country) is dominated by the Islamic religion. You cannot separate > them. Religion is interwoven into every aspect of their culture. Any > attempt to exclude the impact of religion on their culture will fail.**** > > ** ** > > --Doug**** > > ** ** > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <[email protected]> > wrote:**** > > Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. **** > > ** ** > > There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting > "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats > because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.**** > > ** ** > > And this is not about religion?**** > > ** ** > > I don't see it.**** > > ** ** > > Or you don't see it.**** > > ** ** > > What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this > particular issue.**** > > ** ** > > --Doug**** > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]> > wrote:**** > > I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all. The question is of > groups and institutions.**** > > ** ** > > When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the > entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?**** > > ** ** > > When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia > Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so. Many NRA > members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes. > Examples abound. And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like > Miller's Applause model.**** > > ** ** > > Isn't this possibly a cultural issue? Possibly regional? The largest > Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, > its Indonesia. They do not appear to have this issue.**** > > ** ** > > So my question stands as Kofi stated:**** > > "Where are the leaders? Where is the Majority? Nobody speaks up."*** > * > > NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the > religion lies.**** > > ** ** > > And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to > do with speaking out against injustice. It is not a religious issue, but a > civic, cultural one.**** > > ** ** > > -- Owen**** > > ** ** > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org**** > > > > **** > > ** ** > > -- > Doug Roberts > [email protected] > [email protected]**** > > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins**** > > > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell**** > > ** ** > > > > **** > > ** ** > > -- > Doug Roberts > [email protected] > [email protected]**** > > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins**** > > > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell**** > > ** ** > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org**** > > > > **** > > ** ** > > -- > Doug Roberts > [email protected] > [email protected]**** > > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins**** > > > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell**** > > ** ** > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > -- Doug Roberts [email protected] [email protected] http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
