Qué viva el simposio! On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Victoria Hughes <[email protected]>wrote:
> Absolutely to Steve, and whiskey and a talk about all this. I would LOVE > to. > Just tell me the time and place. > > Tory > > > > On Sep 14, 2012, at 12:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > > Victoria, > > I was speaking from the perspective of two religions with which I have > first-hand familiarity: Christianity and Islam. Both of which require > faith as a prerequisite of membership. > > But yes, I'd enjoy drinking whiskey with you and, if I may suggest, Steve > S. to discuss further. > > --Doug > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Victoria Hughes <[email protected] > > wrote: > >> Doug - >> You are defining religion differently than I am. I said nothing about >> blind faith. That was your term. >> I was talking about belief. You have belief (blind faith?) in your >> intellectual objectivism. >> >> Buddha said very clearly and consistently "Do not do this because I tell >> you to. Try this and see if it works for you, and then do it or not." >> >> I am happy to continue this until the cows come home, but I suspect this >> list is not the place. >> If you want to meet over whisky, and get into this, let me know. >> >> Tory >> >> >> <SeaCliff 24.125.jpg> >> >> >> >> Tory Hughes >> unusual objects and unique adornments >> www.toryhughes.com >> www.toryhughes-galleryshop.com >> www.facebook.com/tory.hughes1 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 14, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: >> >> Well see, here we go again. >> >> To which I come back again with the point of view that any philosophy, or >> religion that is human-centric in nature as both Christianity or Islam are, >> is inherently bad. A narrow world view, enabled, promoted, and enforced >> with even narrower strict fundamentalist practitioners is by definition >> destructive. >> >> There can be no greater moral deficiency than having been born with an >> intellect and then refusing to use it. >> >> Blind faith is exactly that: blind. "Faith" in religion is defined as >> having accepted, unquestioningly, what someone else has told you is the one >> true way. >> >> I personally have no respect for religious faith. >> >> I respect people's right to chose to live that way, right up to the point >> where they attempt to influence how I live and think. But not their >> decision to unquestioningly commit to a dogma. >> >> Religion, because it requires "faith" to become a subscriber, is >> inherently bad. >> >> And as long as we're on the subject, if religion is bad for the reasons >> described above, then the opposite of religion is cosmology: the science of >> trying to *understand* the universe rather than attempting to explain it >> away with fairy tales. >> >> --Doug >> >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Victoria Hughes < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> *Religion is not inherently bad. *It is the use of it for mundane power >>> that is the problem. >>> All religious traditions began with a prophet / visionary / mystic who >>> urged tolerance, peace and self-awareness. Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha... In >>> most cases, that person's initial followers began to leverage their own >>> closeness and supposed 'superior understanding' to that original figure to >>> justify behaviour that benefited their mundane activities. >>> >>> Every religion has gone through this. Every creed of any kind has gone >>> through this. The challenge is our use of belief. >>> >>> Nick could speak to this too: there are developmental lines in the >>> psychology of individuals, groups, nations, tribes, etc: and these will use >>> powerful innate tools (like the human need to believe in something) for >>> different purposes, depending on their development. >>> >>> And there is nothing inherently wrong or flawed in the things in which >>> people embed their beliefs. Science, truth, the divine, all those have >>> positive beneficial elements. Again, it is the use of those concepts as >>> tools to persuade others into actions that destroy that is the problem. >>> >>> Self-awareness in all this is the key. >>> >>> Tory >>> >>> On Sep 14, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: >>> >>> One semi-final note from me about culture and religion: I lived in >>> Libya for a year in 1976 when I was a consultant to Occidental Petroleum. >>> I traveled extensively between Tripoli, Benghazi, and several points about >>> 900 miles southeast of Tripoli in the northern tip of the Sahara during >>> that year. I quickly learned that the culture of the Arabic half of Libya >>> (as compared to the Berber Bedouin culture that comprises the eastern half >>> of the country) is dominated by the Islamic religion. You cannot separate >>> them. Religion is interwoven into every aspect of their culture. Any >>> attempt to exclude the impact of religion on their culture will fail. >>> >>> --Doug >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts >>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. >>>> >>>> There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting >>>> "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats >>>> because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion. >>>> >>>> And this is not about religion? >>>> >>>> I don't see it. >>>> >>>> Or you don't see it. >>>> >>>> What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this >>>> particular issue. >>>> >>>> --Doug >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all. The question is >>>>> of groups and institutions. >>>>> >>>>> When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect >>>>> the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend? >>>>> >>>>> When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at >>>>> Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so. >>>>> Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the >>>>> organization >>>>> takes. Examples abound. And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, >>>>> much like Miller's Applause model. >>>>> >>>>> Isn't this possibly a cultural issue? Possibly regional? The largest >>>>> Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, >>>>> its Indonesia. They do not appear to have this issue. >>>>> >>>>> So my question stands as Kofi stated: >>>>> "Where are the leaders? Where is the Majority? Nobody speaks >>>>> up." >>>>> NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the >>>>> religion lies. >>>>> >>>>> And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing >>>>> to do with speaking out against injustice. It is not a religious issue, >>>>> but a civic, cultural one. >>>>> >>>>> -- Owen >>>>> >>>>> ============================================================ >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Doug Roberts >>>> [email protected] >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >>>> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >>>> 505-455-7333 - Office >>>> 505-670-8195 - Cell >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Doug Roberts >>> [email protected] >>> [email protected] >>> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >>> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >>> 505-455-7333 - Office >>> 505-670-8195 - Cell >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Doug Roberts >> [email protected] >> [email protected] >> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >> 505-455-7333 - Office >> 505-670-8195 - Cell >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > > -- > Doug Roberts > [email protected] > [email protected] > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
